78 replies to this topic

[Twookus Stark]

Most of the posters on this forum generally think Ned Stark was terrible at "The Game of Thrones".
Another widely held opinion is that Tyrion is good at this "Game"

My question is why?

Ned was beheaded as a result of his ineptitude as Hand of the King, is at least how most people seem to read it.

Even though it was after he was the Hand Tyrion was sentenced to die after Gregor killed the Red Viper,and was only saved by his brother, and it seems likely that Cersei might have killed him earlier if he wasn't her family,and if he hadn't formed a plan to free Jaime.

It seems to me that both men were caught up in machinations of Littlefinger, and also placed false trust in Varys.

So in closing. I'd like to hear what you think about the two men's run in the "Game" and whether or not you think one of them played it better.

[Apple Martini]

At the risk of coming off as flippant ...

Ned is dead. Tyrion is alive. Tyrion wins. For now.

[atia-]

Uh, Tyrion.  He's no Littlefinger, but I think he was way more suited for the "game."  He cared a lot less about honor than Ned and a lot more about staying alive.

[Red Raven]

Tyrion.

1)  He escaped with his head.

2)  He didn't have any illusions about how slippery the others in Kings Landing were, and he pulled a few slippery moves of his own.   Ned was a about as square as a square peg could be.

[Twookus Stark]

Right but the only reason he's still alive is because Jaime saved him, i think it's safe to say that if Benjen or Brandon were in King's Landing as much as Jaime and when Ned was in the black cells they would've done the same thing

[Twookus Stark]

And Tyrion absolutely did have illusions about Varys' friendship, he expected him to testify for him at his trial.

[Winter's Knight]

If I were king,I'd pick Ned as my Hand, since then I'd be assured of at least one man's loyalty.

As to who's the better player, it strikes me that Ned never played for the throne to begin with, he only tried to do what he thought was right.

[Leviathan I]

I think the biggest problem for Ned was that he was naive, he seemed to have a mentality that good always prevailed and that as long as he was doing the honourable thing he would be okay.

[LuisDantas]

What is being good at the got like anyway?  Is it even desirable?

The way I see it, one might as well say that Ned is a terrible pickpocket or that he does not know how to be emotionally abusive: technicaly true, I suppose, but a weird choice of criticism for sure.

I think some people want to see too much power in the individuals.  Much of what happens in the story is essentially a forced spring of political tensions finally breaking loose.  It is possible to direct the damage to a degree, but little point in actually doing it.

Ned is a far better man than Stannis, Tywin or Petyr Baelish.  And that is so in large part because he has his priorities straight and therefore has little time for the game of thrones. The Stark way is to deal in honor and love, not blood, titles and thrones.

[Red Raven]

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And Tyrion absolutely did have illusions about Varys' friendship, he expected him to testify for him at his trial.

Good point.  I'll amend my statement to Tyrion had far fewer illusions about how slippery the KL crowd could be.

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he has his priorities straight and therefore has little time for the game of thrones

He could have gone home after he resigned in a huff but stayed and tried to pave the way for Stannis to take the throne.  He still played the game, but not well.

Edited by Red Raven, 17 April 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[Twookus Stark]

@LuisDantas totally agree with especially the part about the "forced spring of political tension". I think Ned and Tyrion were just wrong place wrong time and didn't really want the title of Hand of the King.Ned had a duty to his friend and King and Tyrion had a duty to his family, neither of them had a strong desire for power but they were going against people thet were consumed by the quest for power i.e. Littlefinger and Cersei

[Dr. Pepper]

I reiterate what's already been said.  Ned's dead, Tyrion's alive.  Jon Arryn and Tywin didn't fare too well, either. The one with the head and bowels intact wins.

There were a lot of problems for both of them but one of them was that they entered an arena where other players had been scheming away for over a decade before they arrived.  There's almost no hope to catch up in such a short amount of time.  The only way they might have been able to succeed is to have gotten rid of the small council completely and flushed out all of the bought catspaws.

Edited by Dr. Pepper, 17 April 2012 - 02:41 AM.

[LuisDantas]

Survival alone isn't very useful as a parameter forthe validity of their stances.  People can lead good lives and leave healthy legacies before dying, and they can survive at the expense of too high a price.

Ned died, but his legacy is worthy.  Tywin's is a disaster, as is Littlefinger's.  Tyrion, Varys and even Renly are far more arguable.  I guess Theon is a good illustration; he survived Rodrick Cassel, Balon Greyjoy and Tywin Lannister, but what, if anything, does that prove?  That survival isn't very useful to gauge political success.

[Apple Martini]

LuisDantas, on 17 April 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

Survival alone isn't very useful as a parameter forthe validity of their stances.  People can lead good lives and leave healthy legacies before dying, and they can survive at the expense of too high a price.

But the question isn't, "Who was the better Hand?" or "Who led the better life?" or "Who left the best legacy?" The question was, "Who was a better player of the game of thrones?" And the answer is Tyrion.

[LuisDantas]

Fair enough.

[Hear Us Roar]

Varys has been playing in Kings Landing for 20+ years, you can just walk in to his house and beat him. He has a homecourt advantage. LF realized that, planted his seeds, and got far away to watch them grow

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 17 April 2012 - 03:09 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Hear Us Roar, on 17 April 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

Varys has been playing in Kings Landing for 20+ years, you can just walk in to his house and beat him. He has a homecourt advantage. LF realized that, planted his seeds, and got far away to watch them grow

True, but Littlefinger still hasn't figured out Varys' game plan, which seems to be "put a Targaryen on the throne again". Or as it may pan out, put a Blackfyre on the throne. It's not outright stated, but LF is wary of Varys since he does not know what Varys wants, or he can't completely figure it out. Since Varys is a eunuch as well, he cannot be tempted with women, and he doesn't seem especially greedy either, so money is also out.

LF making Sansa go to the Godswood in Kings Landing is indirect proof of this, since it's the only place LF knows of which is unreachable for Varys' spies, and LF clearly doesn't know a way to turn the spies, or to incapacitate this part of Varys' network.

I will be very, very interested to see how LF reacts to F!Aegon and his conquest. Finally, Varys will have revealed some of his hand and I think we'll get to see more of a LF vs Varys power play, which should be interesting indeed. LF will have the Vale,  and will try and make a play for the Riverlands and the North through Sansa vs Aegon's probable Dorne, Stormlands and probably Kings Landing. That leaves Stannis, the Tyrells and the Lannisters to pick a side.

[ghost the direwolf]

between the 2 definitely Tyrion .he only mistake was to sent LF to deal with the Tyrell. if not he would have discovered what Lf is about.

[Teal'c]

Hear Us Roar, on 17 April 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

Varys has been playing in Kings Landing for 20+ years, you can just walk in to his house and beat him. He has a homecourt advantage. LF realized that, planted his seeds, and got far away to watch them grow

I was going to say the same thing about Tyrion. He knows his family better than Ned ever could, and was more familiar with the members of the court. Ned was a fish out of water in that snake pit called KL.

[eyeheartsansa]

Which one is still alive???

is there any doubt it's Tyrion?