78 replies to this topic

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Twookus Stark, on 17 April 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

Most of the posters on this forum generally think Ned Stark was terrible at "The Game of Thrones".
Another widely held opinion is that Tyrion is good at this "Game"

My question is why?

Ned was beheaded as a result of his ineptitude as Hand of the King, is at least how most people seem to read it.

Even though it was after he was the Hand Tyrion was sentenced to die after Gregor killed the Red Viper,and was only saved by his brother, and it seems likely that Cersei might have killed him earlier if he wasn't her family,and if he hadn't formed a plan to free Jaime.

It seems to me that both men were caught up in machinations of Littlefinger, and also placed false trust in Varys.

So in closing. I'd like to hear what you think about the two men's run in the "Game" and whether or not you think one of them played it better.

Twookus Stark, on 17 April 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

Most of the posters on this forum generally think Ned Stark was terrible at "The Game of Thrones".
Another widely held opinion is that Tyrion is good at this "Game"

My question is why?

Ned was beheaded as a result of his ineptitude as Hand of the King, is at least how most people seem to read it.

Even though it was after he was the Hand Tyrion was sentenced to die after Gregor killed the Red Viper,and was only saved by his brother, and it seems likely that Cersei might have killed him earlier if he wasn't her family,and if he hadn't formed a plan to free Jaime.

It seems to me that both men were caught up in machinations of Littlefinger, and also placed false trust in Varys.

So in closing. I'd like to hear what you think about the two men's run in the "Game" and whether or not you think one of them played it better.

Tyrion isn't that good. But that they're also no in the same position. Ned is the head of his House and named hand of the king in his own right. Tyrion takes his father's place and is subordinate to him. In the end they both end in the black cells and sentenced to either death or the wall.

[Richard Rivers]

I think Ned hated the Lannisters from the get go, I do not think Tyrion hated the Starks.  Its not so much Ned's honor proved to be his downfall, as it was his general hate towards the Lannisters.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

LuisDantas, on 17 April 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

Survival alone isn't very useful as a parameter forthe validity of their stances.  People can lead good lives and leave healthy legacies before dying, and they can survive at the expense of too high a price.

Ned died, but his legacy is worthy.  Tywin's is a disaster, as is Littlefinger's.  Tyrion, Varys and even Renly are far more arguable.  I guess Theon is a good illustration; he survived Rodrick Cassel, Balon Greyjoy and Tywin Lannister, but what, if anything, does that prove?  That survival isn't very useful to gauge political success.

As for Ned, the war of the 5 kings and the death of son and his wife.  The death of tens of thousands of North Men. The burning of Winterfell, the lack of preparation for Winter in the North despite it being right there in his words, "Winter is coming"  Remember, Ned?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Lord Littlefinger, on 17 April 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

As for Ned, the war of the 5 kings and the death of son and his wife.  The death of tens of thousands of North Men. The burning of Winterfell, the lack of preparation for Winter in the North despite it being right there in his words, "Winter is coming"  Remember, Ned?

that was on Robb, Ned left the North in tip top shape

Anyways... Tyrion is hands down the greatest player at A Game of Thrones (just like Cyvasse)

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lyanna Stark, on 17 April 2012 - 04:03 AM, said:

True, but Littlefinger still hasn't figured out Varys' game plan, which seems to be "put a Targaryen on the throne again". Or as it may pan out, put a Blackfyre on the throne. It's not outright stated, but LF is wary of Varys since he does not know what Varys wants, or he can't completely figure it out. Since Varys is a eunuch as well, he cannot be tempted with women, and he doesn't seem especially greedy either, so money is also out.

LF making Sansa go to the Godswood in Kings Landing is indirect proof of this, since it's the only place LF knows of which is unreachable for Varys' spies, and LF clearly doesn't know a way to turn the spies, or to incapacitate this part of Varys' network.

I will be very, very interested to see how LF reacts to F!Aegon and his conquest. Finally, Varys will have revealed some of his hand and I think we'll get to see more of a LF vs Varys power play, which should be interesting indeed. LF will have the Vale,  and will try and make a play for the Riverlands and the North through Sansa vs Aegon's probable Dorne, Stormlands and probably Kings Landing. That leaves Stannis, the Tyrells and the Lannisters to pick a side.

Lyanna Stark, on 17 April 2012 - 04:03 AM, said:

True, but Littlefinger still hasn't figured out Varys' game plan, which seems to be "put a Targaryen on the throne again". Or as it may pan out, put a Blackfyre on the throne. It's not outright stated, but LF is wary of Varys since he does not know what Varys wants, or he can't completely figure it out. Since Varys is a eunuch as well, he cannot be tempted with women, and he doesn't seem especially greedy either, so money is also out.

LF making Sansa go to the Godswood in Kings Landing is indirect proof of this, since it's the only place LF knows of which is unreachable for Varys' spies, and LF clearly doesn't know a way to turn the spies, or to incapacitate this part of Varys' network.

I will be very, very interested to see how LF reacts to F!Aegon and his conquest. Finally, Varys will have revealed some of his hand and I think we'll get to see more of a LF vs Varys power play, which should be interesting indeed. LF will have the Vale,  and will try and make a play for the Riverlands and the North through Sansa vs Aegon's probable Dorne, Stormlands and probably Kings Landing. That leaves Stannis, the Tyrells and the Lannisters to pick a side.

Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence. But it is evidence of their being no evidence.

“The plan—”

“Which plan?” said Tristan Rivers. “The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver’s Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 17 April 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

that was on Robb, Ned left the North in tip top shape

Anyways... Tyrion is hands down the greatest player at A Game of Thrones (just like Cyvasse)

But Ned being dead and his 15 year old son becoming liege lord and king in the North is on Ned.  Also, the North is not in tip top shape.  It seems to have been in decline before Ned ever ascended to rule but it is certainly not it tip top shape.

And Tyrion, is open in is contempt for his father and his sister and flagrant with Shae to be considered the best player.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Twookus Stark, on 17 April 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

@LuisDantas totally agree with especially the part about the "forced spring of political tension". I think Ned and Tyrion were just wrong place wrong time and didn't really want the title of Hand of the King.Ned had a duty to his friend and King and Tyrion had a duty to his family, neither of them had a strong desire for power but they were going against people thet were consumed by the quest for power i.e. Littlefinger and Cersei

Yeah I find its hard to believe that Ned hadn't already been undone or wouldn't be undone.  The intrigues at kings landing are mirrored in the keeps and castles castles across the seven kingdoms. From Sunspear to Karhold

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Winterbreath, on 17 April 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

If I were king,I'd pick Ned as my Hand, since then I'd be assured of at least one man's loyalty.

As to who's the better player, it strikes me that Ned never played for the throne to begin with, he only tried to do what he thought was right.

He was playing.  Its not the game of Throne its the game of Throneswhat do you call that wooden chair with the dire wolves carved into it on the dais at Winterfell.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Lord Littlefinger, on 17 April 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

But Ned being dead and his 15 year old son becoming liege lord and king in the North is on Ned.  Also, the North is not in tip top shape.  It seems to have been in decline before Ned ever ascended to rule but it is certainly not it tip top shape.

And Tyrion, is open in is contempt for his father and his sister and flagrant with Shae to be considered the best player.

Ned did not commit suicide, his death is not on him. The North was in bad shape? Wanna give me a quote on that
Tyrion is still alive and playing AGOT, he has flaws with Shae and his dad and what not... But that's because of his age and the fact that he is not a Lord, but he will come back as a Lord (and kill LF)

Edited by Ndrew of Typhgarian, 17 April 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Winterbreath, on 17 April 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

If I were king,I'd pick Ned as my Hand, since then I'd be assured of at least one man's loyalty.

As to who's the better player, it strikes me that Ned never played for the throne to begin with, he only tried to do what he thought was right.

And of course you can't trust Ned. Ned can only be relied upon to do what Ned thinks is right. While is he might not sell you our for gold, there's no gauarantee your interests will always align with what Ned believes is the right thing to do.  You can ask Rickard Karstark and Walder Frey about that.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 17 April 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Ned did not commit suicide, his death is not on him. The North was in bad shape? Wanna give me a quote on that
Tyrion is still alive and playing AGOT, he has flaws with Shae and his dad and what not... But that's because of his age and the fact that he is not a Lord, but he will come back as a Lord (and kill LF)

His death is on him.  

“To end this war before this war ends us. We have won all that we are like to win... and stand to lose all just as quick, unless we make a peace. I have shown Lady Glover every courtesy, and she swears her lord will treat with me. If we hand back Deepwood Motte, Torrhen’s Square, and Moat Cailin, she says, the northmen will cede us Sea Dragon Point and all the Stony Shore. Those lands are thinly peopled, yet ten times larger than all the isles put together. An exchange of hostages will seal the pact, and each side will agree to make common cause with the other should the Iron Throne—”

Victarion chuckled. “

“And there is still Sea Dragon Point … if I cannot have my father’s kingdom, why not make one of my own?” Sea Dragon Point had not always been as thinly peopled as it was now. Old ruins could still be found amongst its hills and bogs, the remains of ancient strongholds of the First Men. In the high places, there were weir-wood circles left by the children of the forest."...

"What’s there? I’ll tell you. Two long coastlines, a hundred hidden coves, otters in the lakes, salmon in the rivers, clams along the shore, colonies of seals offshore, tall pines for building ships.”

In addition to a mint, Lord Manderly also proposed to build Robb a warfleet. “We have had no strength at sea for hundreds of years, since Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father’s ships. Grant me the gold and within the year I will float you sufficient galleys to take Dragonstone and King’s Landing both.

“This is good land.” Jojen picked up a handful of dirt, rubbing it between his fingers. “A village, an inn, a stout holdfast in the lake, all these apple trees... but where are the people, Bran? Why would they leave such a place?”

“They were afraid of the wildlings,” said Bran. “Wildlings come over the Wall or through the mountains, to raid and steal and carry off women. If they catch you, they make your skull into a cup to drink blood, Old Nan used to say. The Night’s Watch isn’t so strong as it was in Brandon’s day or Queen Alysanne’s, so more get through. The places nearest the Wall got raided so much the smallfolk moved south, into the mountains or onto the Umber lands east of the kingsroad. The Greatjon’s people get raided too, but not so much as the people who used to live in the Gift.

“Is it the wildlings?” she asked.

“Who else?” Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. “And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this Kingbeyond-the-Wall for good and all.”

“Beyond the Wall?” The thought made Catelyn shudder.

Ned saw the dread on her face. “Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear.”

“There are darker things beyond the Wall.” She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

Ned had his suspicions, but he did not give them voice. “For the joy of my company, surely,” he said lightly. “And there is the Wall. You need to see it, Your Grace, to walk along its battlements and talk to those who man it. The Night’s Watch is a shadow of what it once was. Benjen says-”

“No doubt I will hear what your brother says soon enough,” Robert said. “The Wall has stood for what, eight thousand years? It can keep a few days more. I have more pressing concerns. These are difficult times. I need good men about me. Men like Jon Arryn. He served as Lord of the Eyrie, as Warden of the East, as the Hand of the King. He will not be easy to replace.”

Glass, Jon mused, might be of use here. Castle Black needs its own glass gardens, like the ones at Winterfell. We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter. The best glass came from Myr, but a good clear pane was worth its weight in spice, and green and yellow glass would not work as well. What we need is gold. With enough coin, we could buy ’prentice glass-blowers and glaziers in Myr, bring them north, offer them their freedom for teaching their art to some of our recruits. That would be the way to go about it.

It was a tale that any northmen knew well. “My father’s grandmother was a Flint of the mountains, on his mother’s side,” Jon told her. “The First Flints, they call themselves. They say the other Flints are the blood of younger sons, who had to leave the mountains to find food and land and wives. It has always been a harsh life up there. When the snows fall and food grows scarce, their young must travel to the winter town or take service at one castle or the other. The old men gather up what strength remains in them and announce that they are going hunting. Some are found come spring. More are never seen again.” “It is much the same at Karhold.”

[eyeheartsansa]

LF Lash, you really seem to get a kick out of enlightening everyone about Eddard Stark.  You've made 7 8 posts in this thread in less than an hour.  Where do you get all of your energy?

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 17 April 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Ser_Patreck]

Neither is actually good at the Game of Thrones. And that's because both and fundamentally good people, even with their failings.

To be good at the Game of Thrones means to be willing to plan, condone and execute the Red Wedding. It means to be willing and able to order the muder of a 15 year old and her baby, just because they stand in the way of your own incestuous children getting the throne. I t means the slaughter of a dozen or so children and teenagers because of who their father was.

It means unleashing Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers on an unsuspecting population, marrying off 13-year old children like chattel, or whipping random whores to teach your little brother a lesson. It means killing a good man, doing a good job and regrouping the Realm, just because he wasn't born a Targaryen

And neither, Ned or Tyrion, has what it takes to do all that.

I can't honestly hold it against them.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

its not energy. I'm just nauseous and sitting here. waiting to stop feeling nauseous before leave for work.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ser_Patreck, on 17 April 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Neither is actually good at the Game of Thrones. And that's because both and fundamentally good people, even with their failings.

To be good at the Game of Thrones means to be willing to plan, condone and execute the Red Wedding. It means to be willing and able to order the muder of a 15 year old and her baby, just because they stand in the way of your own incestuous children getting the throne. I t means the slaughter of a dozen or so children and teenagers because of who their father was.

It means unleashing Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers on an unsuspecting population, marrying off 13-year old children like chattel, or whipping random whores to teach your little brother a lesson. It means killing a good man, doing a good job and regrouping the Realm, just because he wasn't born a Targaryen

And neither, Ned or Tyrion, has what it takes to do all that.

I can't honestly hold it against them.

no it doesn't The Red Wedding is horrible move.  Its just that Walder Frey is so old he doesn't give a fuck. And none of his children have the sense or determination to stand up to him.

Quote

It means unleashing Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers on an unsuspecting population, marrying off 13-year old children like chattel,

those are the only two things it requires really. War and marriages.  And Ned and Tyrion are both willing to do that.

“A lordling down from the Trident, says your father’s men burned his keep, raped his wife, and killed all his peasants.”

“I believe they call that war.” Tyrion smelled Gregor Clegane’s work, or that of Ser Amory Lorch or his father’s other pet hellhound, the Qohorik. “What does he want of Joffrey?”

“New peasants,” Bronn said. “He walked all this way to sing how loyal he is and beg for recompense.”

“I’ll make time for him on the morrow.” Whether truly loyal or merely desperate, a compliant river lord might have his uses. “See that he’s given a comfortable chamber and a hot meal. Send him a new pair of boots as well, good ones, courtesy of King Joffrey.” A show of generosity never hurt.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 17 April 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Ser_Patreck]

Lord Littlefinger, on 17 April 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

no it doesn't The Red Wedding is horrible move.  Its just that Walder Frey is so old he doesn't give a fuck. And none of his children have the sense or determination to stand up to him.

those are the only two things it requires really. War and marriages.  And Ned and Tyrion are both willing to do that.

Sending Beric Dondarrion to stop Clegane and Lorch is War. Metting your enemies' armies in the open field is war. Ordering Clegane and Lorch to launch an unprovoked attack on innocent peasents, knowing full well that they will rape, torture and pillage along the way isn't War. It's Terrorism.

Celebrating a marriage contract between yours and a potential or actual friend or ally's children is one thing is Marriage. Sending your niece away from an horrible and dangerous situation, giving her a chance to meet her suitor and, through this, making the peace with an unknown Kingdom is marriage. Also note that in both situations marriage was in the future, after maturity. Now, forcing a poor, beaten and intimidated orphan to marry someone she would rather not, all the while with the perspective of rape hanging of her head (From Joffrey, not Tyrion)? That's not marriage. That's abuse.

So please, let's use proper terminology here.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

@LLL
I just wanna say it's nice to talk to someone who swears as much as me, and you never let me down with quotes
Anyways, aside from the navy was the North ever prosperous? It's a shit load of land with shitty weather, and zombies attacking the Wall.

Ned Stark made many ill choices, however his death is on LF ("I told you not to trust me" and then asked if Joff had the soft heart of women ( I'm paraphrasing) Then his death is on Joff, then on Cersei, then Robert, then Janos Slynt, then the Kingslayer, then Illyn Payne, then on Tyrion and finally on himself. He had a long list of enemies, he did not jump off a cliff like the Lady Dayne

[eyeheartsansa]

I remember a comment in one of Bran's chapters in ASOS .. where a stranger they meet on the road mentions how back when Ned was in Winterfell, it was safer, virgins could walk the streets at night unaccompanied.  Now with Ned gone, there's boltons and ironmen running around everywhere - it's just not safe anymore.

It's a testament to Ned's character, that he is remembered this way, whether or not it's actually true.  That doesn't really say much for his 'game,' but it's worth pointing out since he is up for discussion atm.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 17 April 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ser_Patreck, on 17 April 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Sending Beric Dondarrion to stop Clegane and Lorch is War. Metting your enemies' armies in the open field is war. Ordering Clegane and Lorch to launch an unprovoked attack on innocent peasents, knowing full well that they will rape, torture and pillage along the way isn't War. It's Terrorism.

Terrorism is a tactic.  Which a lord may or may not employ.  Raping and pillaging are commonly employed tactics of war in Westeros, eliminating pillaging would be impossible because the armies wouldn't be able to feed themselves.  Eliminating rape, would be possible but only within the limits of the lord to project is authority in through his commanders and sergeants to a unit level.

Quote

Celebrating a marriage contract between yours and a potential or actual friend or ally's children is one thing is Marriage. Sending your niece away from an horrible and dangerous situation, giving her a chance to meet her suitor and, through this, making the peace with an unknown Kingdom is marriage. Also note that in both situations marriage was in the future, after maturity. Now, forcing a poor, beaten and intimidated orphan to marry someone she would rather not, all the while with the perspective of rape hanging of her head (From Joffrey, not Tyrion)? That's not marriage. That's abuse.

So please, let's use proper terminology here.

Neither Sansa nor Mycella were 13.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

eyeheartsansa, on 17 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I remember a comment in one of Bran's chapters in ASOS .. where a stranger they meet on the road mentions how back when Ned was in Winterfell, it was safer, virgins could walk the streets at night unaccompanied.  Now with Ned gone, there's boltons and ironmen running around everywhere - it's just not safe anymore.

It's a testament to Ned's character, that he is remembered this way, whether or not it's actually true.  That doesn't really say much for his 'game,' but it's worth pointing out since he is up for discussion atm.

eyeheartsansa, on 17 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I remember a comment in one of Bran's chapters in ASOS .. where a stranger they meet on the road mentions how back when Ned was in Winterfell, it was safer, virgins could walk the streets at night unaccompanied.  Now with Ned gone, there's boltons and ironmen running around everywhere - it's just not safe anymore.

It's a testament to Ned's character, that he is remembered this way, whether or not it's actually true.  That doesn't really say much for his 'game,' but it's worth pointing out since he is up for discussion atm.

Actually its not Ned they're remembering.  Its when their was "a Stark in Winterfell"  And basically he's just saying its lawless in a time of war, which has nothing to do with Ned or even the Starks, really.

“When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There’s squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers.”

The Reeds exchanged a look. “Flayed men?” said Jojen.

“The Bastard’s boys, aye. He was dead, but now he’s not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead.” He looked at Bran when he said that, and at Summer stretched out beside him. “As to that Wall,” the man went on, “it’s not a place that I’d be going. The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that come back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that’s even darker.” He poked at the fire with his stick. “It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf’s dead and young one’s gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that’s left us is the ghosts.”