Lyanna Stark, on 17 April 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:
Why? Is it a moral stain to not automatically love a child, any child, regardless of how it came to end up in your home?
Again, putting words into my mouth. I never said 'automatically', and I never said 'love'. I said that I find it baffling that she even had the strength to keep it up. I believe she did it as a slight to Ned, but if the kid is perfectly nice, and your children love him as if they were full siblings, wouldn't that soften your heart just a bit, after so many years? I'm not saying that she should have automatically loved Jon simply because Ned commanded her to STFU about him living there. I'm just saying that wouldn't she have gotten used to it, to Jon being there, mingling with her children, her husband and her servants?
Lummel, on 17 April 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:
I don't think that Catelyn is a saint but in this case I think her coldness towards Jon is more than outweighed by the affection he gets from other people in his life. Jon is less disturbed and conflicted by his upbringing than Theon. I'm mystified as to why the Jon-Catelyn relationship is seen as so key. I don't think anybody in the book expects Catelyn to play the mother in Jon's life.
I think the affection he gets from other people is irrelevant - I'm not a huge Jon fan, but I feel that he's fairly treated by pretty much everyone else (who matters, anyway), except for Catelyn. I know that living in a household with someone who doesn't like you and makes it quite clear that you're not welcome can be awful.
And I never said I expected Catelyn to be Jons' mother - I simply said, once again, that I would have expected her to soften a bit towards him being there. And I don't agree with the idea of taking my feelings out on an innocent child.
mormont, on 17 April 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:
But Ned and Cat had a relationship: Cat and Jon did not. Yes, a caregiver ignoring a child harms that child: but Cat wasn't Jon's caregiver, nor did anyone expect her to be. Most of my neighbours ignore my kids, though they live in close proximity - doesn't seem to be doing them any harm.
There are acres of difference between Cat ignoring Jon and, say, Ned ignoring Jon (just as there are acres of difference between Cat telling Robb that Jon can't inherit, and Cat doing the same thing out of petty spite over a child's game). I'll accept that Jon was harmed by Cat ignoring him when I see some proof that anyone - even Jon - expected her to nurture and care for him.
I think neighbours are a bit different to living in the same rooms and having to associate with each other on a day-to-day basis. It appears that Jon trained and learned with Robb, so I can assume that they were together a good majority of the time, which is why I say that Catelyn would have probably seen Jon as often as she saw Robb. I think Jon can still be affected by Catelyns' ignoring of him, despite nobody expecting
her to nurture and care for him. Living with such tension all the time is not easy or healthy, for anyone, let alone a kid.
Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 17 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:
. We are not excusing her behavior, we are rationalizing it. For 14 years this child grows more accustomed to a Stark Lordling lifestyle. Every year is worse then the previous, Ned remains silent, Robb remains brotherly, Arya remains sisterly, etc, etc
While part of that is true, I don't think it's fair to say that Jon was living a Stark 'lordling' lifestyle - he was always conscious of his status as a bastard, always aware that he would never truly fit in, no matter how much Robb or Arya loved and accepted him.