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[Book Spoilers] Arya's scene


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I thought Yoren mouthing off to a bunch of armed guys seemed reckless to the point of suicidal stupidity when he's not at the top of holdfast walls like in the books. Also didn't think there was much point to making it all about Gendry too...

I agree Yoren was suicidally brash. I think it could have been written better just by having Yoren yell "RUN!" to the recruits, and then have his fight and death play out basicly the same way, rather than have him sort of arrogantly refuse to surrender with a group of armed men and a loaded crossbow pointed at him. Likewise the Arya lie about Lommy being Gendry is going to require a major suspension of disbelief to get past. Either we the viewers are supposed to believe that:

1) An entire patrol of soldiers was sent out with the specific purpose of hunting Gendry, but they weren't even given the most basic physical description of what he looked like beyond the helm, and the lie fools them.... Every other other bastard had dark hair, so getting fooled by a blond kid's corpse is a major stretch. Unfortunately this seems to be what they are going with because the alternative is:

2) We find out they know Arya is lying, in which case they would likely kill Arya, torture her, or suspect her of being Gendry since she at least has dark hair. We'll see how it plays out, but I am expecting option 1.

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I thought it was a good way to condense the material. Arya scenes with Yoren, when she's wiping down Needle, and the scenes outside were my favorite of the episode.

Must agree with this. It's a shame they compressed Arya's journey north (they were some of my favourite chapters in Clash), but if the episode four trailer is anything to go by then we'll get a good look at how sick Gregor and his ilk are anyway.

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Not really. The bigger time would be in drafting more script. Most of the added scenes would be in previously used locations/sets and assuming they do 5-10 takes of every scene to get several angles and pick the best readings, this is probably adding no more than a day or two to each location. A better finished product is worth a day or two.

As others have said: It does not take one or two days to film an episode of Game of Thrones. It takes several weeks. Even just 3-4 minute long dialogue scene can take a day to film. There's so much more than to just go "Oh, guys, we're already one location, wanna film two more episodes?"

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Personally I thought the entire episode was one of the best in the series so far. I especially liked the way they tied Yoren into Arya's story. I loved that he went down in a rage of glory. The Lannister guard who killed Lommy was great too. I understand the complaints purists have about the HBO series, but I've been loving the changes so far. I think it makes more sense to have all of the stuff that happens to Arya in Book 2 happen mainly in Harrenhal, since it gives viewers a place to identify with. It also gives Arya potentially more screen time with some important characters like Tywin, the Tickler, and Jaqen so that her internal struggles in her mind are made more explicit to viewers.

Maisie Williams has been just as tremendous this season. I'm looking forward to more of her scenes.

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I think it makes more sense to have all of the stuff that happens to Arya in Book 2 happen mainly in Harrenhal, since it gives viewers a place to identify with. It also gives Arya potentially more screen time with some important characters like Tywin, the Tickler, and Jaqen so that her internal struggles in her mind are made more explicit to viewers.

I agree with this if that's how they're deciding to edit the length of time Arya and crew spend out in the countryside. While there were great scenes (such as the villager torture / hanging scenes) in there, I think there's probably a lot of that (much as cutting down Dany's journey will require) which can be eliminated and still tell the story once she gets to Harenhal.

I do wonder what happens after that though - especially when they meet Lem and the band of outlaws. But that all follows the Red Wedding so I'm wondering if that will be the season finale?

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I think you're wrong about this, and I agree that 12 episodes would have been preferable to ten, but adding two whole new episodes would take a hell of a lot longer than just a day or two. If it was just as simple as two days of extra filming, they would have added two episodes.Two whole episodes requires a lot more filming, and tons more done in post production, such as editing, adding music, etc. Would have taken additional weeks and possibly months, not just two days. And obviously, two more episodes would cost more, which may also be a reason for HBO ordering 10 rather than 12.

A day or two at each location would probaly require budgeting for an extra 12-18 days, but since schedules can overlap that really isn't much time at all. It also isn't as expensive as you are thinking, since it gives an extra day or two to spread out fixed costs like travel and scenery building.

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I don't mind them cutting out scenes of meandering but when you do a scene do it right. If they cut out pointless Loras/renly/Margery sex scenes and Melisandre banging Stannis then they would have time for the good stuff.

I completely agree. There seems to be a lot of time being wasted on unnecessary scenes with side characters/stories. I'm sure they could pay tribute to the Loras/Renly/Margaery triangle more efficiently. Same for Littlefinger.

Also, am I the only one who was bothered by the implausability of that heroic charge by the boys after Yoren was killed?

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1) An entire patrol of soldiers was sent out with the specific purpose of hunting Gendry, but they weren't even given the most basic physical description of what he looked like beyond the helm, and the lie fools them.... Every other other bastard had dark hair, so getting fooled by a blond kid's corpse is a major stretch. Unfortunately this seems to be what they are going with

While I agree with you that changing it to make the attack about Gendry wasn't really that believable in comparison to the way it played out in the book, I will argue that there's little reason for them to distinguish between a dark haired boy and a blonde one as Robert Baratheon's bastard. Remember, all three of his supposedly legitimate children are golden haired like their Mother Cersei. Under those examples, its not unreasonable to assume a bastard could be blonde as well, right? The cover up and discovery of all Baratheons being 'black of hair' is something only Ned Stark (and Jon Arryn before him) had pieced together and Ned didn't get to bring that proof to light except the letter he sent to Stannis. We book readers have a lot of behind the scenes knowledge that these on screen 'guards' would not have had.

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I don't mind them cutting out scenes of meandering but when you do a scene do it right. If they cut out pointless Loras/renly/Margery sex scenes and Melisandre banging Stannis then they would have time for the good stuff.

Having her do the whole "I know, I don't care, strategy demands that you knock me up." was fairly easy and quick way to establish who TV Margaery is. Not my favorite scene ever, but it certainly wasn't pointless.
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While I agree with you that changing it to make the attack about Gendry wasn't really that believable in comparison to the way it played out in the book, I will argue that there's little reason for them to distinguish between a dark haired boy and a blonde one as Robert Baratheon's bastard. Remember, all three of his supposedly legitimate children are golden haired like their Mother Cersei. Under those examples, its not unreasonable to assume a bastard could be blonde as well, right? The cover up and discovery of all Baratheons being 'black of hair' is something only Ned Stark (and Jon Arryn before him) had pieced together and Ned didn't get to bring that proof to light except the letter he sent to Stannis. We book readers have a lot of behind the scenes knowledge that these on screen 'guards' would not have had.

I was thinking along the same lines. The only information we actually see the gold cloaks receive is that:

1) His name is Gendry

2) He's headed north on the King's Road with the Night's Watch

3) He has a bull's head helmet that he made himself.

This seems like sufficient information even without a physical description.

Joffrey didn't know who/where all of his "father's" bastards were, and I doubt Janos Slynt did either. Tracking them down probably would have required getting information from Varys (or possibly Littlefinger, though the scene with Barra makes this seem less likely). The Gold Cloaks are not exactly a small, elite, trustworthy fighting force. They're more like a bunch of hired thugs who likely talk more than they should when they're drunk. Unless Varys was deliberately trying to make all the Gold Cloaks see the truth of the rumors that had caused Joffrey to order the slaughter in the first place, he would have probably tried to avoid bringing attention to the fact that they all had black hair. He might have even sacrificed a few random other kids without black hair just to keep any of the gold cloaks from noticing that all their targets were dark haired.

Also, it wasn't really a large patrol sent specifically to hunt Gendry, it was more like a pair of Gold Cloaks sent to find him, expecting him to be handed over by Yoren because they had a royal warrant demanding it. When that failed, they were too far from King's Landing to go back for reinforcements, so they requested help from a military patrol that happened to be nearby. Amory Lorch probably had better things to do than hunt down Robert's bastards, but when two Gold Cloaks with a royal warrant show up and ask for assistance, he can't exactly refuse without risking pissing off Joffrey.

EDIT: I mostly like the way the scene was handled, though I would have liked a somewhat larger fire around the wagon, and I was a bit sad that Arya never really got a chance to use Needle (except to kill the stable boy in season 1).

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I don't mind them cutting out scenes of meandering but when you do a scene do it right. If they cut out pointless Loras/renly/Margery sex scenes and Melisandre banging Stannis then they would have time for the good stuff.

So anything added is pointless and anything left out is the good stuff? Book purists :bang:

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Not everything added is pointless but certainly the gratuitous sex scenes are a little rediculous. For instance the littlefinger brothel creep scene. Mel bangs Stannis on table. Some things are better left for the imagination. The fire around the wagon was week. I never really thought they were even in danger. Grrm said himself that the best books/comics made into movies or shows are the ones that stay true to the actual books. I feel so far he has sold his soul to HBO. I hope it gets better soon cuz IMO its become a snooze fest.

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Mel bangs Stannis on table.

I was so scared of that scene at first, I was thinking: "this is not Stannis, I know he slept with her, but it was much more better to leave it to imagination in the books, and it will be again gratuitous sex that will waste minutes."

But in the end, it's the first really well done and interesting sex scene of the season... although the ones in Renly's camp were interesting... but Dillane and Van Houten really nailed it and made of it a great scene imo.

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Not everything added is pointless but certainly the gratuitous sex scenes are a little rediculous. For instance the littlefinger brothel creep scene. Mel bangs Stannis on table. Some things are better left for the imagination. The fire around the wagon was week. I never really thought they were even in danger. Grrm said himself that the best books/comics made into movies or shows are the ones that stay true to the actual books. I feel so far he has sold his soul to HBO. I hope it gets better soon cuz IMO its become a snooze fest.

4 posts. So you hate it so much that you just had to come create a posting name on this website?

There have been few changes from the novels, and even fewer of any relevance. Can you give me examples of major changes? Mel banging Stannis doesn't count because them having sex is explictly book-canon. And few of the sex scenes were totally unncessary, although I'll give you the triple peep-show in the brothel and Whores 101 in season 1. All the others were very relevant to the characters. People have sex in real life, even fantasy characters. We get to see that part of their lives since it's a show (not real, but people have sex on reality TV shows too).

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Major changes? How about killing off more then one person that still lives throughout. Changing Asha's name to Yara is stupid and annoying. Adding a whore named Roz and wasting time with stupid lil finger brothel scenes of him being creepy and sadistic. Bronn was never commander of the city watch. Its pure hogwash and BORING. I could go on for days. You are entitled to your opinion but so am I. Aryas scene was bootleg and cheese. She is by far the best character and the most entertaining. Looked ike they put together a cardboard tower in Pennsylvania with a bunch of larpers running around. All I wanted was Arya to be hacking away at dudes screaming WINTERFELL WINTERFELL. And IMO all the changes are major because they never happened in the book.

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about the 2 extra episodes. If you look at HBO's seasons for their 1-hour dramas over the past decade, their episode length varies from 8-13. If it was standard HBO practice that every season was 10 episodes, then it would be silly to bitch that Game of Thrones was only 10 episodes, but it isn't. Even within the same series, you see different season lengths. I'm not totally convinced that GoT is more expensive than say True Blood or Boardwalk Empire both of which get 12 episode seasons so perhaps the cost question is something of a red herring. A show like Big Love which one might expect was cheaper to produce only got 9 and 10 episodes for the last 2 seasons, and Oz had 8 episode seasons. So I have hopes that a large driver in season length is artistic, but I am of course not privy to HBO's decision making. One of GoT's strengths is its pacing and spreading it out endangers that. Even if you did Arya's arc the long way, that's only an extra 5-10 minutes, not enough to justify an entire new episode on its own. So then the question is what other scenes need to be added... It's also worth remembering in all of this that HBO does get something out of extra episodes. They fill up extra weeks of programming so people keep their subscriptions, they can charge more for the DVDs, and they are more likely to hit a total episode number needed for syndication. So the extra cost isn't exactly completely non-recoupable.

As for the scene itself, I was disappointed watching it, mainly because it was one of the scenes that I remember the best so I notice the differences more. But at the same time, I thought how it was done worked. Let's be honest, them traipsing through the woods would have been boring television. So the question is it worth it to have Arya and friends run away only for for Arya to mount a suicidal rescue mission when you aren't going to show the intervening bits, or is it clearer to have Arya just mount the suicidal charge when it is clear that she had the opportunity to escape. From this perspective I like how they did it, and I don't think it had much to do with them being cheap. I think this also necessitated the battle being in a less fortified position. It is much harder to suggest the possibility of escape from a fortified position without actually having the escape happen.

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Major changes? How about killing off more then one person that still lives throughout. Changing Asha's name to Yara is stupid and annoying. Adding a whore named Roz and wasting time with stupid lil finger brothel scenes of him being creepy and sadistic. Bronn was never commander of the city watch. Its pure hogwash and BORING. I could go on for days. You are entitled to your opinion but so am I. Aryas scene was bootleg and cheese. She is by far the best character and the most entertaining. Looked ike they put together a cardboard tower in Pennsylvania with a bunch of larpers running around. All I wanted was Arya to be hacking away at dudes screaming WINTERFELL WINTERFELL. And IMO all the changes are major because they never happened in the book.

I will address each point in turn.

1. Killing off people still alive in the book. The only character of note is Rakharo, which I'm sure you know was done because the actor quit to go be in a big-budget Hollywood movie. And that fact aside, how does which bloodrider survives impact the story at all? Not in any meaningful way as I see and you've said nothing to convince me otherwise.

2. Changing Asha's name. They changed it to avoid Asha/Osha confusion, and I don't see why a name matters at all since it's the same character. You are of course entitled to be as angry as you want about the name change, but I think that's a pretty silly reason to be upset. And it certainly doesn't make the show boring, which seems to be your main complaint.

3. Adding a whore named Roz. I admit that Roz has been a controversial new character. I personally like the addition because the Roz scenes have added depth to other characters in my opinion. The fact that Roz cares about the murdered baby Bara and no one else seems to except Tyrion whose concern is at least partly motivated by the damaging effect the baby killings will have on the Lannister reputation among the commoners. But you still haven't given me any specific vitally important scenes that were cut to make room for Roz. And no, mere appearance in the book does not in and of itself make a scene vital. Ned's execution? Vital. Ned having sex with Cat in Winterfell? Cut, but not vital.

4. Bronn not commander of the watch. No, an ultimately irrelelvant character named Bywater was, and he gets killed by the end of Book 2. So why include him when you already have an established character in Bronn? The point of Bywater is that he removed someone loyal to Cersei (Janos Slynt) and installed someone loyal to himself (why not Bronn instead of Bywater?) What exactly did Bywater do in the book that is so damned important that it renders the entire series "hogwash" and "BORING" because it's not there?

5. Entitled to opinion. Yes, yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But what we are not entitled to is to have our opinions go unchallenged, especially when said opinions are posted on a message board. Nor, just because an opinion exists, is that opinion entitled to respect if it has no support.

6. Arya not screaming Winterfell. She still attacked. She is older in the show than the book and smart enough not to give away who she is by bellowing Winterfell.

7. All changes are major because they never happened in the book. This is the main reason why I cannot respect your opinion. I do of course respect your right to have your opinion and to express your opinion. But that does not mean I have to respect the opinion itself.

As for the scene itself, I was disappointed watching it, mainly because it was one of the scenes that I remember the best so I notice the differences more. But at the same time, I thought how it was done worked. Let's be honest, them traipsing through the woods would have been boring television. So the question is it worth it to have Arya and friends run away only for for Arya to mount a suicidal rescue mission when you aren't going to show the intervening bits, or is it clearer to have Arya just mount the suicidal charge when it is clear that she had the opportunity to escape. From this perspective I like how they did it, and I don't think it had much to do with them being cheap. I think this also necessitated the battle being in a less fortified position. It is much harder to suggest the possibility of escape from a fortified position without actually having the escape happen.

This is an opinion I can respect because it is backed up with reasons, goes beyond book purism, acknowledges the difference in medium between TV and novel, and recognizes that a scene can still be effective for what it is even though it may not entirely match up to his vision from the book. I disagree that the scense should be in any way disappointing, but respect the opinion because it is a well-explained and nuanced opinion.

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