58 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

EgoistMusketeer, on 17 April 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Family dilemmas aside, Theon also pledged fealty and allegiance to the King in the North, fought in the northern army and was sent as an ambassador on Robb's behalf.  He then proceeded to desert his army, his king, and his duty.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure that while Theon was still considered a Stark ward, he wouldn't have been forced to swear fealty and pledge his sword to Robb.

Gurkhal, on 17 April 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

A captive can't reasonably be held accountable for broken oaths or promoses to the captor made during the period as a prisoner.

Was he forced, as a prisoner/captive, to swear fealty to Robb? I don't see how.

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 April 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[Lord Ben]

EgoistMusketeer, on 17 April 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Family dilemmas aside, Theon also pledged fealty and allegiance to the King in the North, fought in the northern army and was sent as an ambassador on Robb's behalf.  He then proceeded to desert his army, his king, and his duty.

IMHO his greater responsibilities were to his family.  Robb was foolish for trusting him.   They kept him hostage and didn't get invaded for ~15 years, they released him and were invaded within a few weeks/months.  You don't live long trusting the Ironborn.

[Gurkhal]

Apple Martini, on 17 April 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Was he forced, as a prisoner/captive, to swear fealty to Robb? I don't see how.

What choice was he given? He certainly wasn't allowed to say and do "No, I'm going home to Pyke and my biological family."

[Apple Martini]

Lord Ben, on 17 April 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

IMHO his greater responsibilities were to his family.  Robb was foolish for trusting him.   They kept him hostage and didn't get invaded for ~15 years, they released him and were invaded within a few weeks/months.  You don't live long trusting the Ironborn.

While I think that Robb was an idiot to send Theon away, it's clear that the ironborn were going to invade with or without Theon. It was already in the works when he arrived. Now, Theon leaving Robb probably cost them Winterfell and made it impossible for Cassel's men to root the ironborn out of the other northern keeps they took, sure. But the invasion itself was coming regardless.

Gurkhal, on 17 April 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

What choice was he given? He certainly wasn't allowed to say and do "No, I'm going home to Pyke and my biological family."

Did he ask to? I don't recall anyone holding him at knife-point in Game of Thrones when he swore fealty to Robb.

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 April 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Gurkhal, on 17 April 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

What choice was he given? He certainly wasn't allowed to say and do "No, I'm going home to Pyke and my biological family."

Nowhere in the text is it said that Theon was forced to march south with Robb.  Theon could have remained in Winterfell and with most of the North gone, and lord Eddard dead, he could have made a run for it whenever he pleased.

[Gurkhal]

EgoistMusketeer, on 17 April 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Nowhere in the text is it said that Theon was forced to march south with Robb.  Theon could have remained in Winterfell and with most of the North gone, and lord Eddard dead, he could have made a run for it whenever he pleased.

So you don't think he would have been kept under guard...and hanged when the Ironborn invaded?

[Winter's Knight]

Gurkhal, on 17 April 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

So you don't think he would have been kept under guard...and hanged when the Ironborn invaded?

Of course he would've been, he is still a hostage.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Gurkhal, on 17 April 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

So you don't think he would have been kept under guard...and hanged when the Ironborn invaded?

Maybe he would and maybe he wouldn't but he wouldn't have been breaking any oaths.  Maybe Rodrik would have hanged him, but I expect their plan with Theon was to wait for Balon's death and then send him back to become lord of the Iron Islands.

Edited by EgoistMusketeer, 18 April 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[lojzelote]

Not just to the OP:
Not to be rude, but:

1) We DON´T know if AA = TPWWP.
2) If the Ghost of the High Heart didn´t lie (why would she do anything like this?), TPWWP will come from line of Aerys II and Rhaella.

ETA: Whoops Arya_Nym beat me to it.

Edited by lojzelote, 18 April 2012 - 12:54 AM.

[Leto]

Gurkhal, on 17 April 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Wait, what betrayal? He returned to his family to turn on his captors cannot possibly be counted as a betrayal. It would be like counting hostages witnessing against their kidnappers as betrayal.

Does it matter if we count it as betrayal or not? The northmen (and even the Southerners) see it as a betrayal.

That being said, I don't think GRRM kept him alive and tortured this long to just be a source of kingsblood. Theon isn't done yet!

[DannySpud]

EgoistMusketeer, on 17 April 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

What dragons out of stone is Theon awakening?

Sea Dragons, the Kraken.

[Free Northman]

All the contrarians flocking to this thread, I see. (Meaning no offense, just referring to all those who don't want the conventional storyline to be true i.e. Jon being the hero, Theon being a villain and all that).

To the original poster, all I can say is :"No", without going into spoilers.

Edited by Free Northman, 18 April 2012 - 03:12 AM.

[lightbringer333]

can be possible. may be. theon too looks good on throne. i just wonder what kind of crown he will wear. may be he will get it made up of kracken design ??? also it will be called iron crown and not golden crown since greyjoy dont like gold.

[Twookus Stark]

Theon is a character i can't really decide whether i like or not, obviously he's great to read and all but i mean as in personal feeling's.

He's definitely a tragic story, being forced to choose between his true family and his surrogate family was an incredibly cruel twist of fate and there was no right choice as either way he was going to end up a pariah.

[Silver Spearwife]

Leto, on 18 April 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

That being said, I don't think GRRM kept him alive and tortured this long to just be a source of kingsblood. Theon isn't done yet!

Hell yeah.

I feel so bad for Theon. Most people do. We want to see him regain some part of himself, be able to walk straight, be able to hold a bow again, be able to say his own name without it being some great accomplishment. He's so shattered by now that while reviving him over two books after his death means that he's got something more important in his future than just freeing Jeyne Poole and feeding some R'hlloric fires, I don't think his future is...necessarily glorious. Or, not as glorious as we might hope anyway.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

EgoistMusketeer, on 17 April 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Family dilemmas aside, Theon also pledged fealty and allegiance to the King in the North, fought in the northern army and was sent as an ambassador on Robb's behalf.  He then proceeded to desert his army, his king, and his duty.

He chose his kin over his king. Just as Stannis did, if anyone ought to understand Theon's dilemma it should be Stannis. If Davos was there he'd give it to Stannis straight, I think Theon just wants to die as Theon and not as Reek now.

[Gurkhal]

EgoistMusketeer, on 18 April 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

Maybe he would and maybe he wouldn't but he wouldn't have been breaking any oaths.  Maybe Rodrik would have hanged him, but I expect their plan with Theon was to wait for Balon's death and then send him back to become lord of the Iron Islands.

And how well do you think that would go? "Hey, mates! We just had two wars between us and all but we've been raising this puppet in our castle and were wondering if you would you like to have him back to rule you? With love - Winterfell."

[Silver Spearwife]

Gurkhal, on 18 April 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

And how well do you think that would go? "Hey, mates! We just had two wars between us and all but we've been raising this puppet in our castle and were wondering if you would you like to have him back to rule you? With love - Winterfell."

Yeah. One of the big problems among the characters in the books is culture clash (wildlings vs. black brothers, Dany vs. the slavers, etc.). In most ruling houses in Westeros, they'd feel they have no choice but to take their heir back and put him on the throne unless they pull a Randyll Tarly and remove him from the equation. The ironborn are different. They're somewhere between the Dothraki and wildlings, who only follow who's strongest, and the majority of Westeros, who follow whoever's got a drop of royal blood. In other words, they follow the trueborn heir, so long as he's capable of ruling by their standards.

[Lord Ben]

Silver Spearwife, on 18 April 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Yeah. One of the big problems among the characters in the books is culture clash (wildlings vs. black brothers, Dany vs. the slavers, etc.). In most ruling houses in Westeros, they'd feel they have no choice but to take their heir back and put him on the throne unless they pull a Randyll Tarly and remove him from the equation. The ironborn are different. They're somewhere between the Dothraki and wildlings, who only follow who's strongest, and the majority of Westeros, who follow whoever's got a drop of royal blood. In other words, they follow the trueborn heir, so long as he's capable of ruling by their standards.

They didn't follow Robert because he had a better claim than the King did, they followed him because he killed everyone with a better claim.  People still demand force.    In GoT with Caitlyns chapters she mentions her son being tested by the bannermen else they probably would have just gone home.   Theon would not have lasted, he would have been washed overboard in a storm.   I don't think Randyll Tarly was unique.

Edited by Lord Ben, 18 April 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

Boromir-Bloodstorm, on 17 April 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Another thing is that born amidts smoke and salt - who else can it be? Obviously Dany. But many fans would rather kill themselves than see that. So a loy of people say Jon - but we've got no story on his birth and concrete salt and smoke stuffs. The only other option seems as I suggest, but it has yet to happen.

What do you think?

I know it seems like a stupid thing but I remember clearly that  sometime during ADWD Jon remembered that Bowen Marsh had told him that they had a lot of salt in their stores. Something really subtle, really Martin-esque. I really like your theory though, if Martin can get around Theon's weak body this could happen but there's little foreshadowing to it.

ETA: Quote from the book "Salt and butter sat upon the tables. The sight made Jon gloomy. They were well provided with salt, Bowen Marsh had told him, but the last of the butter would be gone within a moon's turn" Page 655

Edited by The Imp With A Pimp Limp, 18 April 2012 - 09:08 AM.