71 replies to this topic

[James Arryn]

Eggplant Wizard, on 18 April 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

No way, he only carried on about her because she was taken from him. He didn't love her, Robert just loves himself. He loved the idea of her - she was the one thing he wanted but didn't get.

I'm almost in agreement with this.

I don't get much of a sense of a huge connection between them prior to the 'abduction'. While I don't doubt Robert's sincerity for a minute, I think it likely hes been fooling himself for a long time. I think Lyanna was a blow on many levels, but the degree to which his entire life...decades here...of destructive behavior is based on a short and seemingly not all that significant relationship is unlikely. I think it makes for a good self-rationalization more than a real reason.

Also, I think his pride was a pretty big factor in the equation, and to a degree he has needed to demonize Rhaegar beyond the point where he's recognizable as the character anyone else sees so that he wouldn't ever have to really look at the alternative.

[bloodymime]

Dr. Pepper, on 18 April 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Which further proves that Arryn had been offering such poor counsel for so long that Robert had become used to doing whatever the hell he wanted without realizing the consequences of these actions.

For all we know, Arryn could have been the most able Hand ever to set foot in the Red Keep.  The evidence we have been given, however, contradicts that notion.

I wish I could remember who wrote it or where but somone on here was talking about the huge cost for a reign like Roberts when it stayed at court with all the tournements and feasts and how it was unsustainable unless that kind of king took his show on the road to spread out the costs among the other nobles.

If Jon couldn't convince Robert to rein in his spending he could have at least encouraged him to get out and travel his realm. Seems like a good idea anyways for a new king from a new House to spread some propaganda on his own behalf. Like people say, Robert seems like the type easily bored and looking for adventure. He couldn't be too hard to convince to take a tour of Westeros.

It goes to show though that for all the complaints about Ned as Hand and how stupid he must be of all the Hands in recent history the only one that really seemed to flourish for any length of time and actually strengthen the realm is Tywin.

Edited by bloodymime, 18 April 2012 - 09:35 PM.

[ckal]

queen cersei-

I think it is a great description of the man as well. It's a little sad to think about after reading that comment, really.

[James Arryn]

Queen Cersei I, on 18 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

An incredibly perceptive comment on Cersei's part. The next part she says is especially apt, "my brother had the same disease." Both Robert and Tyrion want artificial, selfish love-- they want pure, perfect love from a dream person without having to really sacrifice or suffer anything in return.

I agree, but I think that comment cuts both ways.

In that I mean I agree it's partially a perceptive comment on Robert and...is it Tyrion? Makes sense, but I forget the context, and if it were Jaime it would click with Tywin's comment, and be interesting...but say Tyrion because that fits.

But it also says something about Cersei.

Identifying a need for love as an extreme weakness or disability is pretty much text book sociopath stuff.

[James Arryn]

bloodymime, on 18 April 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I wish I could remember who wrote it or where but somone on here was talking about the huge cost for a reign like Roberts when it stayed at court with all the tournements and feasts and how it was unsustainable unless that kind of king took his show on the road to spread out the costs among the other nobles..

Or for being forgettable?

[Menos Grande]

Even though we all doubt rightfully of his rule, he had the presence of a King, and that in sports is good enough! He did broke the kingdom and all that, but none doubt his strenght as king, so he maintain peace... just when he died no strong king appeared at the iron throne so all the rebelions started and than war... it is far worse than his ruling.

[Queen Cersei I]

James Arryn, on 18 April 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

I agree, but I think that comment cuts both ways.

In that I mean I agree it's partially a perceptive comment on Robert and...is it Tyrion? Makes sense, but I forget the context, and if it were Jaime it would click with Tywin's comment, and be interesting...but say Tyrion because that fits.

But it also says something about Cersei.

Identifying a need for love as an extreme weakness or disability is pretty much text book sociopath stuff.

Though Cersei displays plenty of "textbook sociopath" behavior, I'd say this is not one of those times. Her point wasn't that love was weakness; it was that Robert had the need to be loved but was not willing to pay the price for it-- he wanted the adoration and admiration, without the messiness and self sacrifice that comes with real love.

Similarly, Tyrions perception of love is similar for different reasons. Whereas Robert is just straight up cowardly when it comes to weathering difficult emotional issues or withstanding blows to his pride (as Cersei notes, he wants pure, unquestioning love and adulation), Tyrion has a deep fear that he is unlovable and thus pays people to emulate love. He then secretly hopes for love in return, while not making the sacrifices and giving himself in the way that is necessary for true love. He wants love and devotion from Shae, for instance, but refuses to truly open himself up to her and make himself vulnerable, listen to her concerns, and bond with her on any real emotional level.

[bloodymime]

James Arryn, on 18 April 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Or for being forgettable?

Hah, I see you brought your knowledge on the matter over even while I was typing that out, and explained it much better than I was remembering.  And not forgettable, just so many of you great posters on this board I'm still just trying to get used to all the names and interesting insights and opinions.

[Dr. Pepper]

James Arryn, on 18 April 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I probably have a slanted take on this, contrasting Robert too much with real world medieval monarchs, but to me one of his greatest weaknesses as a king was the financial burden he put on the crown by always remaining in KL.

One of the normal duties of a feudal king was the royal procession, and it was also just about the best economic practice as well. When on procession the (incredibly huge) burden of feeding and housing the court fell on the guests. It was used not just to save the royal purse, but help maintain some control over lords who were getting rich enough to constitute a potential threat.

The fact that Robert seems to have never done this to me spoke about how important he felt getting Ned was. I think he took his time because if he's going to do it anyways, he might as well do the procession/get the benefit out of it. But I didn't at all get a sense this was him fulfilling a wish...is he had that wish he could (and should) have been out of KL many many times.

I did not know this.  I'm severely lacking in knowledge of how medieval monarchies really work.  I had assumed that Robert's royal procession up North was a great extravagance borne by the royal coffers.  Thanks for this tidbit!  It certainly makes me agree that Robert going to Ned was a very intelligent decision.

Red Raven, on 18 April 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

You can lead a stag to water, you can't make him drink.

The text implies, based on the comments of people around Robert, that Jon Arryn did try to give him good, sound council but Robert often ignored him.  He and the rest of small council did what they could to keep the kingdom running while King Robert went off to "hunt whores and fuck boars."

Jon Arryn was Hand but even the best Hands have limitations.  "The King shits and the Hand wipes."  Jon Arryn wasn't some magical, all-powerful puppeteer who could pull strings on his former foster son and make Robert be sensible and responsible.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I think I may be mixing up show with book, but wasn't it Littlefinger, Varys and Pycelle who made the comments about Robert ignoring the advice of his small council?  I tend to be suspicious of any comments they make as they aren't the most honest and loyal servants of the throne.

We know that Robert heeded Jon Arryn's advice at least early on as it was Jon Arryn who arranged the marriage with Cersei.  That could have been a catalyst for Robert to start ignoring Arryn's counsel.  Or encouraging that particular alliance could be evidence that Jon Arryn gave poor counsel.

Edited by Dr. Pepper, 18 April 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[The King in the South]

Dr. Pepper, on 18 April 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

I did not know this.  I'm severely lacking in knowledge of how medieval monarchies really work.  I had assumed that Robert's royal procession up North was a great extravagance borne by the royal coffers.  Thanks for this tidbit!  It certainly makes me agree that Robert going to Ned was a very intelligent decision.



Please correct me if I'm wrong because I think I may be mixing up show with book, but wasn't it Littlefinger, Varys and Pycelle who made the comments about Robert ignoring the advice of his small council?  I tend to be suspicious of any comments they make as they aren't the most honest and loyal servants of the throne.

We know that Robert heeded Jon Arryn's advice at least early on as it was Jon Arryn who arranged the marriage with Cersei.  That could have been a catalyst for Robert to start ignoring Arryn's counsel.  Or encouraging that particular alliance could be evidence that Jon Arryn gave poor counsel.

There was nothing "wrong" about the Cersei+Robert marriage. Nobody knew about the twincest or anything like that, and it was the only real way to stop a civil war from happening.

[Leviathan I]

Cersei is responsible for more cons than he is. If Lyanna didn't die he would probably be viewed as a pretty good ruler.

[LuisDantas]

Is it just me, or we have precious little to guide our speculations about how influential Robert, Jon Arryn and other Council members were during his reign?

When we first me Robert, he seemed convinced that his role was to choose a good Hand to do the weight lifting on his stead.  So we naturally tend to assume that his failures are his own while his achievements are actually Jon Arryn's or even Stannis'.

Yet when we saw him with the Small Council he was not all that passive.  His conversations with Cersei and his insistence on dealing with Daenerys both show that he may have sold himself a bit short.

Nor do we have much to go on while deciding how wise or influential the Council members were.  Did Jon Arryn even sit on the Iron Throne?  Did he overcome Varys and Littlefinger's schemes?  How often, how succesfully?  Did Stannis?

Far as I can tell, we just don't know, nor do we have much of a hint either.

[Dr. Pepper]

The King in the South, on 18 April 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

There was nothing "wrong" about the Cersei+Robert marriage. Nobody knew about the twincest or anything like that, and it was the only real way to stop a civil war from happening.

I agree that the twincest was unknowable and the unknowable factors do not form my opinion on why I think it was ultimately poor advice.

[James Arryn]

Queen Cersei I, on 18 April 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Though Cersei displays plenty of "textbook sociopath" behavior, I'd say this is not one of those times. Her point wasn't that love was weakness; it was that Robert had the need to be loved but was not willing to pay the price for it-- he wanted the adoration and admiration, without the messiness and self sacrifice that comes with real love.

Hmmm... Well, I admit I don't have the context for the quote, but unless that explains it, I don't see that your reading is necessarily the only one. If you think it explained within the quote as given, I'm assuming you mean that because of his choice of sources...ie, lazy ones. But it could also be explained by not getting it at home (Not making a Freudian analogy), an insatiability for love, etc. Even being lazy about love wouldn't imo qualify as a disease, and I think that line being so cliche sociopath and Cersie being sociopath also line up.

But as I said, you may well have a context which completely disproves my point, and I also have always argued against the idea of Cersei as inherently unintelligent specifically because she shows moments of significant perception/lateral thinking,.

Quote

Similarly, Tyrions perception of love is similar for different reasons. Whereas Robert is just straight up cowardly when it comes to weathering difficult emotional issues or withstanding blows to his pride (as Cersei notes, he wants pure, unquestioning love and adulation), Tyrion has a deep fear that he is unlovable and thus pays people to emulate love. He then secretly hopes for love in return, while not making the sacrifices and giving himself in the way that is necessary for true love. He wants love and devotion from Shae, for instance, but refuses to truly open himself up to her and make himself vulnerable, listen to her concerns, and bond with her on any real emotional level.

I don't really disagree with any of this except I don't think its as clear as you make it re: Shae.


As I've mentioned before, I think his expectations of loyalty from both she and Bronn were sort of half-hearted.

I think it was the degree of her not loving him/turning against him that truly shocked him. Not that she would testify against him to save herself, but that she would volunteer information no one else knew she even had to help convict him, be in his father's bed, etc. I's somewhat the same with his father...I think he was pretty clear on his father despising him, but the degree to which his father would hurt him caught him off guard, and lead to the whole murder spree.

[Red Raven]

Quote

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I think I may be mixing up show with book, but wasn't it Littlefinger, Varys and Pycelle who made the comments about Robert ignoring the advice of his small council? I tend to be suspicious of any comments they make as they aren't the most honest and loyal servants of the throne.

Ned found out the crown was 6 million in debt and Robert still insisted on a tourney over Ned's vocal objections...just one more thing in a long line of neglectful kingmanship that the small council had to clean up and try to make work.  Whatever else the rest of the small council were, they were right about Robert not taking good advice and not having done so for a very long time.

And it wasn't just the rest of the small council who lamented Robert's unwillingness to properly listen and rule, Robert himself said as much.

[bloodymime]

James Arryn, on 18 April 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Hmmm... Well, I admit I don't have the context for the quote, but unless that explains it, I don't see that your reading is necessarily the only one. If you think it explained within the quote as given, I'm assuming you mean that because of his choice of sources...ie, lazy ones. But it could also be explained by not getting it at home (Not making a Freudian analogy), an insatiability for love, etc. Even being lazy about love wouldn't imo qualify as a disease, and I think that line being so cliche sociopath and Cersie being sociopath also line up.

But as I said, you may well have a context which completely disproves my point, and I also have always argued against the idea of Cersei as inherently unintelligent specifically because she shows moments of significant perception/lateral thinking,.

It's Cersei having a bit of a joke at Robert's and Sansa's expense because they're talking about Joffrey being the rightful king and finishes where Sansa saying everbody wants to be loved and Cersei's reply. “I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”

Cersie may have some twisted views on love but where did she learn from but her father. It's interesting that for all of Tywin's talk about family not a one of his children seem to have any real sense of family love or loyalty. We all know Tyrions view on the subject. No matter what reasons he has Jaime abandons Cersei when she needs him. Cersei does the same to him as soon he's no longer perfect and doesn't exist to be at her beck and call. In fact the first thing Kingslayer thinks when he finally sees his reflection after his escape is something like 'Cersei won't like it I don't look like her anymore'. Where do they learn these lessons of love and loyalty. Tywin doesn't go to war for Tyrion, Tywin goes to war because Tyrion let himself be captured and that stains the family honor. If Tywin had been alive do you think he'd stop Cersei's walk of shame out of love for his daughter or because there was no way in hell a Lannister was going to be laughed at that way.

Despite all that I'd say she does make good points about Robert. It's hard to rag on the man for not being there for children that aren't his but the fact is he does believe they are his little bundles of pride and joy yet is still unwilling to put forth any effort even from the very beginning. When it comes time for Cersei to give birth it's Jaime beside her, Robert makes sure he's out and about hunting so he can avoid the messy moments. But that's Robert, he's that guy you can always depend on as long as you never need anything from him.

It seems like an interesting insight into Robert when he talks about his dreams when you think about it. It's not Lyanna he dreams about every night, it's Rhaegar.

Edited by bloodymime, 19 April 2012 - 01:22 AM.

[Gurkhal]

He was was a bad king but not even close to being one of the worse. I mean he didn't habitually murder people or provoced his vassals into wars. He was a bad king but no tyrant.

[Red Raven]

Quote

Despite all that I'd say she does make good points about Robert. It's hard to rag on the man for not being there for children that aren't his but the fact is he doesn't know that yet is still unwilling to put forth any effort. When it comes time for Cersei to give birth it's Jaime beside her, Robert makes sure he's out hunting so he can avoid the messy moments. But that's Robert, he's that guy you can always depend on as long as you never actually need anything form him.

Pretty much.  Nitpick:  even though baby Joffrey cried when Robert held him while his own bastards giggle and coo, it was still Robert's responsibility to spend some dad time with Joff.  And about his bastards, Robert would visit them for a while, then stop.  It was Varys who sent his bastard kids gifts and Robert was left scratching his head "what did I send him/her?" when the thank-you notes rolled in.

Robert was like a little boy.  Once he got bored with something - his "trueborns", his bastards, his kingdom - he tossed it aside for the next new shiny thing to come along.

[Lord Ben]

Gurkhal, on 19 April 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

He was was a bad king but not even close to being one of the worse. I mean he didn't habitually murder people or provoced his vassals into wars. He was a bad king but no tyrant.

Yeah, this is the key here.   You have to have a standard to compare him to.

[Independent George]

Gurkhal, on 19 April 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

He was was a bad king but not even close to being one of the worse. I mean he didn't habitually murder people or provoced his vassals into wars. He was a bad king but no tyrant.

But the financial side of things is huge. Forget Cersei and the kids - the kind of debt Robert was racking up was ruinous. It's not as obvious as wars, but "counting coppers" is one of the single most important things a ruler has to take care of. The full accounting doesn't come until years later, though, so it's perfectly possible to maintain the illusion of prosperity even as the foundations crumble.

Dr. Pepper, on 18 April 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

I agree that the twincest was unknowable and the unknowable factors do not form my opinion on why I think it was ultimately poor advice.

But the marriage made perfect sense. The Lannisters were the single most powerful house in the Kingdoms, and Tywin effectively ruled for twenty years. If he doesn't marry Cersei, it opens up the possibility of Tywin using her to move against him.

Robert already had solid alliances with the North, the Eeyrie, the Riverlands; to cement his rule, he needed to marry into one of the remaining great houses. Dorne isn't a possibility because of what happened to Elia and her children. That leaves the Tyrells and the Lannisters. I don't know that Mace Tyrell had an available sister, but Cersei is definitely a perfect match for him politically.

The problem was the pre-existing twincest (which was not forseeable), plus Robert generally being a godawful husband. Cerse would never have loved him, but they might have actually been able to hold an effective political marriage had Robert actually given a damn about the kingdom.