423 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

I think we've run the "smoke and salt" and "stone dragon" things into the ground. I've been rereading ADWD this week and noticed again two instances that give some insight into the prophecy.

The first is from one of Jon's chapters when Melisandre is preparing to burn Mance.

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first, and then the son, so that both die kings."

Even though Melisandre has suggested that king's blood has power, this is the first instance of seeing this precise "recipe" to "wake the dragon." Granted Melisandre doesn't succeed in this, but I have to wonder how this fits into the prophecy and why we're only hearing about it now. And also, obviously, who is it or was it?

My favorite instance though is what Tyrion learns from Haldon. The red priest Benerro thinks that Dany is Azor Ahai (which is why I believe she isn't, but that's another story entirely), but also claims that "death itself will bend the knee." In the interest of intellectual honesty, you could say that Dany surviving the pyre could fit that. In addition to that, "all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn."

When is this supposed to happen? Is there a "light-switch-flipping" moment when someone "becomes" AA, and then the resurrections "kick in"?

Dany/AA is supposed to also usher in a summer that never ends, which sounds good in theory, except that an unending summer would cause the world to be just as off-kilter as it is now. It doesn't "solve" anything. Winter is just as necessary as summer.

[Corvinus]

I am not sure that the "two kings" thing is part of the AA prophecy. I though that was just another spell Melisandre was trying like the one with the leeches.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

My favorite instance though is what Tyrion learns from Haldon. The red priest Benerro thinks that Dany is Azor Ahai (which is why I believe she isn't, but that's another story entirely), but also claims that "death itself will bend the knee." In the interest of intellectual honesty, you could say that Dany surviving the pyre could fit that. In addition to that, "all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn."

Very interesting. I hadn't thought of this before, but it seems to also connect up with the Faceless Men animosity towards dragons/Valyria. 'Death itself will bend the knee'? The Faceless Men disagree, I am sure.

It seems like some of the Red Priests have an even more expansive view of just what AA reborn is supposed to do than is contained in the usual idea of defeating the Others and stopping the Long Night. Apparently AA is also supposed to be a savior who remakes the world. And you're spot on about a world without winter being a world without balance. You can't have a world without death.  The more I think about it, the more it seems like AA is being set up as an antagonistic figure- or else not at all what the Red Priests expect him/her to be.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 18 April 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Interesting topic.  As far as the two kings idea, I'm also not sure that was intended as a part of the prophecy, but if it was, and if you allow that Melisandre or the Red Faith may be a little off in the details, then Rhaego and Drogo could fit the bill.

I suspect, however, that the Red Faith may be some sort of bastardization of an original Valyrian religion/sorcery.  In which case, their whole understanding of TPtwP may be off.

[Apple Martini]

Corvinus, on 18 April 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

I am not sure that the "two kings" thing is part of the AA prophecy. I though that was just another spell Melisandre was trying like the one with the leeches.

Except for the "waking the dragon" bit.

ETA: And it can't be Rhaego and Drogo. Rhaego actually died first. Drogo was a vegetable but he was still technically alive. Dany had already miscarried Rhaego when she smothered Drogo.

Edited by Apple Martini, 18 April 2012 - 08:33 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

I think we've run the "smoke and salt" and "stone dragon" things into the ground. I've been rereading ADWD this week and noticed again two instances that give some insight into the prophecy.

The first is from one of Jon's chapters when Melisandre is preparing to burn Mance.

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first, and then the son, so that both die kings."

Even though Melisandre has suggested that king's blood has power, this is the first instance of seeing this precise "recipe" to "wake the dragon." Granted Melisandre doesn't succeed in this, but I have to wonder how this fits into the prophecy and why we're only hearing about it now. And also, obviously, who is it or was it?

I would like to take this opportunity to re-post the very first post I ever contributed to this website, as it concerns part of this topic:

"Hi all, long-time lurker, first-time poster. I just wanted to share a small theory with the board that I came up with during one of my recent re-reads. Sorry if someone else has already posted about this, I used the search function and came up with nothing.

Anyway, my mini-theory has to do with the whole "two kings to wake the dragon" quote from the Jon spoiler chapter on GRRM's website. Specifically, it has to do with the part that says "the father first and then the son, so both die kings." Several people have tried to interpret this as referring to Dany and the deaths of Drogo and Rhaego, but, as has been said before, that interpretation doesn't really work since Rhaego died before Drogo and not after.

However, what if this prophecy (if it is indeed a prophecy) refers to the deaths of Khals Ogo and Fogo, the ones killed by Drogo in one of the later Daenerys chapters? After all, it was the injury that Drogo took in his fight with them that indirectly lead to the birth of Dany's dragons. And the fact that Fogo was killed after his father, thereby making him khal when he died, is mentioned at least twice by two different characters. Now, I realize this may seem like a bit of a stretch, since these khals' deaths probably didn't contribute anything directly to the birth of the dragons (as the deaths of Drogo and MMD did). But remember, we don't actually know how this prophecy is worded. For all we know, it could say something along the lines "First one kings dies, then another, his son, then come the dragons," or something more eloquent. It's easy to see how Melisandre might misinterpret a prophecy worded this way as saying "in order to wake dragons, you must kill two kings," while in reality it is saying that each of these events follow closely on the heels of the other. In other words, the deaths of Ogo and Fogo may simply have been harbingers of, rather than direct contributors to, the birth of Dany's dragons.

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this."

Not sure how I feel about this theory now that I've gotten some distance form it, but it's fun to take a trip through memory lane and re-examine the theory that got me to start posting in this forum in the first place.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Except for the "waking the dragon" bit.

ETA: And it can't be Rhaego and Drogo. Rhaego actually died first. Drogo was a vegetable but he was still technically alive. Dany had already miscarried Rhaego when she smothered Drogo.

As I said, 'if you allow for Melisandre and the Red Faith to be off in the details.'
Obviously, it is not an exact fit, but the Khal and his son both died in very close proximity to the birth of Dany's dragons.  Curious, at the least.

[Howling Mad]

@ AM - Did Mel swap out Rattleshirt for Mance knowing that Jon had already swapped out Mance and Gilly's babies making the recipe moot? or Did Mel sawp out Mance knowing that the burning of king's blood was just ?

Edited by Howling4Reed, 18 April 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Lykos]

I´m wondering about the expressions:  "When the (red) star bleeds" - this has probably happened in the comet and "When the stars bleed" will that happen?  And what will it look like, or is it a hint that the prophecy isn´t to be taken literally?

[Ser? My Lady? Ser?]

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Dany/AA is supposed to also usher in a summer that never ends, which sounds good in theory, except that an unending summer would cause the world to be just as off-kilter as it is now. It doesn't "solve" anything. Winter is just as necessary as summer.

I'm probably wrong, but I always thought that what they mean in ASoIaF by "a summer that never ends" or when they talk about summers which last for decades is that the seasons are just regular, or at least, regular with summer being somewhat extended.  So say 2 months winter, 3 months spring, 5 months summer, then 2 months autumn.  Don't they talk about autumn and "summer snowfalls" in the books as well?

Anybody else think so?

[tze]

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

In addition to that, "all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn."

Oddly enough, this part in particular always reminded me of the Faceless Men. I've always enjoyed the theory that Azor Ahai was already reborn four hundred years ago---that "waking dragons from stone" was a metaphor for the Doom, especially given that the word "volcano" does not appear to exist in ASOIAF---and that Mel and her ilk are kind of hilariously trying to interpret and apply a prophecy that, in their ignorance, they don't know has already been fulfilled. (After all, the Doom caused a "summer" that never ended---there's so much heat still present in Valyria that people can't even set foot there.) If the Faceless Men were responsible for the Doom, and the Kindly Man seems to hint to Arya that that was the case, then AA reborn could have been the head of the order, the person who spearheaded whatever process led to the Doom. If AA was a Faceless Man, and the Doom was caused to perpetuate the FM's goals, then the Faceless Men are all basically "fighting in Azor Ahai reborn's cause".

"And all those who die fighting in Azor Ahai reborn's cause"

Quote

And now a man must die." A strange smile touched the lips of Jaqen H'ghar.
"Die?" she said, confused. What did he mean? "But I unsaid the name. You don't need to die now."
"I do. My time is done."

"Shall be reborn"

Quote

Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

Just a thought.

Another possibility is that someone, say perhaps our ice-associated Jon, is going to start gaining the ability to make wights. Those who died in his service would then be "reborn".

(Although perhaps it has something to do with the Watch itself? Those who join the Watch can, in a metaphorical sense, be said to have "died" (given up their old identities) and been "reborn" (as their pasts are meant to be wiped away when they take their oaths). And the Watchmen "die" and are "reborn" when they take the black and serve the Lord Commander, and Jon is a strong candidate for AA reborn).

And bringing a summer that never ends? Everyone assumes this refers to the season. But "summer" has a different meaning as well (according to Dictionary.com):

Quote

1.a principal beam or girder, as one running between girts to support joists.
2.a stone laid upon a pier, column, or wall, from which one or more arches spring: usually molded or otherwise treated like the arch or arches springing from it.
3.a beam or lintel.

Given the heavy association between the Starks and building (they descend from Brandon the Builder), and the fact that Bran's direwolf is named "Summer" immediately after he wakes from a vision of what lies in the heart of Winter, bringing a "summer that never ends" might very well refer to basically creating a keystone in a building (a House?) that "never ends"---building something that can never be destroyed. Given that cold preserves, the "summer that never ends" might actually end up being winter-based, as counterintuitive as that might initially seem.

Lykos, on 18 April 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I´m wondering about the expressions:  "When the (red) star bleeds" - this has probably happened in the comet and "When the stars bleed" will that happen?  And what will it look like, or is it a hint that the prophecy isn´t to be taken literally?

It's not clear if the actual words of the prophecy say "red star" or if Mel was just assuming the comet had to be the "bleeding star" and couldn't conceive of a non-red star bleeding. Aemon tells Sam that "Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet", which to me is evidence that the red star isn't actually going to turn out to be a comet. My personal favorite theory is that the bleeding star referred to the death of Sword of the Morning Ser Arthur Dayne, of Starfall, who bled and died at Jon's birth (if R+L=J). (Though if the theory that AA was already reborn and caused the Doom turns out to be true, then the "bleeding/red stars" would likely have been the dragons who were engulfed in flame as they were flying in the sky.)

Edited by tze, 18 April 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Awesome ideas Tze and Dragonfish (even though I think the khals are a dead end in that respect). I especially like the alternative meaning of the word "summer" and how it relates to Bran.

I never even thought that Dayne could be the bleeding star, but given the fighting and the sigil it makes an odd sort of sense. I've also read the theory before that the AA prophecy had already been fulfilled through the Doom.

Another thing — if the prophecy is fulfilled, will all of the red priests get like a memo or something? "Hey everyone, so and so fits the bill, you can stop talking about it now." If it had already been fulfilled, who would know? What if there's disagreement about who it is?

[Apple Martini]

Howling4Reed, on 18 April 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

@ AM - Did Mel swap out Rattleshirt for Mance knowing that Jon had already swapped out Mance and Gilly's babies making the recipe moot? or Did Mel sawp out Mance knowing that the burning of king's blood was just ?

No idea. Neither would surprise me.

[EgoistMusketeer]

If R + L = J and they kill off Stannis and Tommen (two kings) meanwhile Jon finds out about R + L. Jon Targaryen takes the throne and dragon is woken.

I'm not saying this will actually happen but 99% of the time in ASOIAF when they mention a dragon waking or rising its just a Targaryen literally standing up.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Mel is still trying to wake dragons from literal stone, not stone dragons, isn't she?

Oh, Sweet Seven, I think the two deaths refer to Rhaegar and Aegon -- the awakened (or to be awakened) dragon, i.e., Targaryen, is either Dany or Jon.  Awakened in the sense of becoming Azor Ahai, TPTWP or King of Westeros.

And yeah, I know Aerys was still alive, but these prophecies have some wriggle room, wouldn't you say?

[Apple Martini]

EgoistMusketeer, on 18 April 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

If R + L = J and they kill off Stannis and Tommen (two kings) meanwhile Jon finds out about R + L. Jon Targaryen takes the throne and dragon is woken.

But Stannis and Tommen aren't father and son, though.

Quote

I'm not saying this will actually happen but 99% of the time in ASOIAF when they mention a dragon waking or rising its just a Targaryen literally standing up.

This I believe.

[Apple Martini]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 18 April 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Mel is still trying to wake dragons from literal stone, not stone dragons, isn't she?

Oh, Sweet Seven, I think the two deaths refer to Rhaegar and Aegon -- the awakened (or to be awakened) dragon, i.e., Targaryen, is either Dany or Jon.  Awakened in the sense of becoming Azor Ahai, TPTWP or King of Westeros.

And yeah, I know Aerys was still alive, but these prophecies have some wriggle room, wouldn't you say?

You could say that by that time Rhaegar was the de facto king anyway. He had the Kingsguard's loyalty, he was always more popular than his father and Tywin, he was commanding the army, etc.

Edited by Apple Martini, 18 April 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

But Stannis and Tommen aren't father and son, though.

I don't think they absolutely must be father and son, they just both need to be kings, in Mances case, by the Westerosi tradition his son becomes king after he has passed so Mel is trying to make the best out of the situation.

[Apple Martini]

EgoistMusketeer, on 18 April 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I don't think they absolutely must be father and son, they just both need to be kings, in Mances case, by the Westerosi tradition his son becomes king after he has passed so Mel is trying to make the best out of the situation.

So the "first the father, then the son" thing is ... incorrect?

[EgoistMusketeer]

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

So the "first the father, then the son" thing is ... incorrect?

Its not incorrect, its just the only way Mel could kill two kings instead of a king and a baby.