423 replies to this topic

[Laurelin Dena]

  dunno in which topic I can post this. what kind of hit me lately: Is Tyrion really Tywins son?

Ser Barristan told Dany that her father Aerys wanted Joanna Lannister, he makes a jape about this.
Tyrion has mismatches eyes (green-Lannister, black-Targ?) and white blond hair, much fairer than what you would expect of a Lannister/Lannister child.

So if Tyrion has Targ blood he can be a dragonrider...

[Teal'c]

Laurelin Dena, on 22 April 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

  dunno in which topic I can post this. what kind of hit me lately: Is Tyrion really Tywins son?

Ser Barristan told Dany that her father Aerys wanted Joanna Lannister, he makes a jape about this.
Tyrion has mismatches eyes (green-Lannister, black-Targ?) and white blond hair, much fairer than what you would expect of a Lannister/Lannister child.

So if Tyrion has Targ blood he can be a dragonrider...

I think Tyrion is the only one who is Tywin's. The twins belong to Aerys.

Edit Wecome Laurelin

Edited by Teal'c, 22 April 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[The Sunset King]

The "summer that never ends" might not actually be a literal reference to a permanent seasonal condition.  It could perhaps metaophorically refer to some kind of supposed future utopia or paradisical conditions.

Melisandre's reasons for believing that Stannis is Azor Ahai have never really been revealed in-depth.  She seems to have a different set of notions/interpretations from the red priests of Volantis.  Thus, her idea of "two kings to wake the dragon" might have been something that could not easily be applied to the reasoning that Benerro or Moqorro utilize.  Melisandre seems to take a quite active role in trying to move what she believes are prophetic events foward through direct intervention.  It is difficulty to tell whether this idea of two kings is derived from the AA texts or whether it might instead be some new plan to assist Melisandre's goal of helping Stannis proceed with his putative AA path (like the scheme of awakening of the stone dragon on Dragonstone).  It is even possible that it was a meant to be a continuation of that plan until she changed her mind about burning Mance Rayder.

Melisandre, the Asshai redpriests, and the Volantis red priests all apparently have the same texts about Azor Ahai, however there is something that has been modifying Melisandre's reasoning, convicing her that Stannis is AA.  Something that the Volantis red priests either rejected or do not know about.

Edited by The Sunset King, 22 April 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[PatrickStormborn]

tze, on 22 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Some thoughts on the salt/smoke issue:

If someone had a vision long ago and saw "salt and smoke" when AA is reborn, then perhaps the point is the colors, not the substances themselves, especially given that GRRM uses the word "smoke" as a color on several different occasions throughout ASOIAF and the prequel novellas. Salt is white, smoke is grey. This could refer to a child born of the House of Stark---the colors of "smoke and salt" have been their colors for thousands and thousands of years. (And while multiple Westerosi Houses can and do have the same colors---the Baratheons and the Greyjoys, for example---have we ever actually seen another House that shares the Stark colors?)

The image of AA being born out of something grey and something white could also refer to the battle at the TOJ. The grey direwolf (Ned Stark and his men) fought the Kingsguard, who bear banners of pure white.

In ASOS, Stannis tells Davos about the "hero born out of the sea", which seems to imply that the vision included a hero being born amidst smoke and salt from the sea. This is why Melisandre and Maester Aemon believe the place of smoke and salt to be Dragonstone.

ETA: The hero born out of the sea could also be a metaphorical reference to the Dothraki sea, although personally I don't buy that theory.

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 22 April 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[tze]

PatrickStormborn, on 22 April 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

In ASOS, Stannis tells Davos about the "hero born out of the sea", which seems to imply that the vision included a hero being born amidst smoke and salt from the sea. This is why Melisandre and Maester Aemon believe the place of smoke and salt to be Dragonstone.

ETA: The hero born out of the sea could also be a metaphorical reference to the Dothraki sea, although personally I don't buy that theory.

. . . and if the Wall is in fact made of seawater, then a hero being "reborn" at the Wall would also be "born out of the sea".

Not to mention, the sea has been associated with death in least one prophetic figure (our darling Patchface). "Born out of the sea" could simply be a metaphor for "born out of death".

And as water extinguishes fire, someone "born out of the sea" could represent someone born out of the extinguishment of fire (which would fit someone born out of Robert's Rebellion, the "sea" that extinguished the power of fiery House Targaryen).

Edited by tze, 22 April 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Eejit]

Apple Martini, on 22 April 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

I've wondered about this, too. If he knows about Dany or cares about her at all. Or if he knows about the prophecy in general or cares about it at all.

Speaking of Bloodraven, when he wargs the crow and says, "King! King!" to Jon, I think it's actually one of the strongest, though lesser referenced, clues that Aegon (supposedly an AA/PtwP candidate himself) is actually dead. Namely, Bloodraven would still have eyes in the capital to follow what was going on and could easily have been warging an animal (say, a certain black kitten?) the night of the Sack. I think he'd know if Aegon was switched, and if he wasn't. If he thought or knew that Aegon was still alive, he wouldn't call Jon "king." And I see no reason for Bloodraven not to know what really happened with Aegon. If he can know about Jon being the legitimate Targ king, he can know about that.

Bloodraven's motives and current feelings towards the Targaryen dynasty are still incredibly obscure. For example, why did he have the raven quork "King" about Jon? What was that meant to accomplish?

Anyhow. Rhaenys' kitten...
Seems likely that Brynden Rivers knows the truth of what happened with Aegon, whatever that may be.

[Ygrain]

@Tze
A great catch, with the colours, and with seawater as the possible building material. I agree that it might be a hint that AA will be reborn from the House Stark, and if so, it would be a very clever way to go about it. However, if the salt is to be taken literally, "amidst salt" part might be a literal reference to being reborn within the Wall itself, probably after being stored in one of the cells in it, as the Wall has unknown magical properties which might somehow affect the outcome.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

If Bloodraven knows Jon to be the trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen, i.e., the legitimate king of Westeros, what does he need with Danaerys, even if she does have dragons?  In fact, real dragons have caused the Targs a lot of grief, better that they stay away, at least until the North's immediate problems are dealt with.

Here's something to muddy the waters: what if several people have the potential to become AA, and that's why more than one person seems to fulfill that prophecy?  So it might have been Rhaego (that's a stretch), or it could be Dany, or it could be Jon, or [choose candiate of your choice].  Maybe Dany has taken herself inadvertently out of the running by getting stuck in Meereen, and now John is the last hope?  And so forth and so on.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 22 April 2012 - 08:33 PM.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 22 April 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

If Bloodraven knows Jon to be the trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen, i.e., the legitimate king of Westeros, what does he need with Danaerys, even if she does have dragons.  In fact, real dragons have cause the Targs a lot of grief, better that they stay away, at least until the North's immediate problems are dealt with.

Here's something to muddy the waters: what if several people have the potential to become AA, and that's why more than one person seems to fulfill that prophecy?  So it might have Rhaego (that's a stretch), or it could be Dany, or it could be Jon, or [choose candiate of your choice].  Maybe Dany has taken herself inadvertently out of the running by getting stuck in Meereen, and now John is the last hope?  And so forth and so on.

I agree with this and/or we'll never know for sure whether jon, dany, or even possibly davos = Azor Ahia......maybe even beric was a failed candidate, after all death bent the knee and his followers were "reborn" as knights

[ARYa_Nym]

It is believed that Bloodraven has been using Mormont's raven and the first time it referred to Jon as king was when Jeor said that the line of dragonkings has ended. Why does he continue to call Jon king though? If Jon is in the NW then it's irrelevant because of his vows unless he knows something.

There's also the matter of a possible Blackfyre plot. Will Bloodraven interfere or not? We don't know.

There's less reason to believe that he's using Rhaenys' kitten Balerion but I see it as a possibility. If he is that could be why that cat in particular seems to hate Lannisters. The Lannisters are responsible for the deaths of Aegon, Rhaenys, and Aerys.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

ARYa_Nym, on 22 April 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

It is believed that Bloodraven has been using Mormont's raven and the first time it referred to Jon as king was when Jeor said that the line of dragonkings has ended. Why does he continue to call Jon king though? If Jon is in the NW then it's irrelevant because of his vows unless he knows something.

There's also the matter of a possible Blackfyre plot. Will Bloodraven interfere or not? We don't know.

There's less reason to believe that he's using Rhaenys' kitten Balerion but I see it as a possibility. If he is that could be why that cat in particular seems to hate Lannisters. The Lannisters are responsible for the deaths of Aegon, Rhaenys, and Aerys.

I don't think Jon has to leave the Night's Watch, or break his vows, to move on to another life, occupation, position.  I think he's been expelled, so to speak.

[Apple Martini]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 22 April 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Here's something to muddy the waters: what if several people have the potential to become AA, and that's why more than one person seems to fulfill that prophecy?  So it might have been Rhaego (that's a stretch), or it could be Dany, or it could be Jon, or [choose candiate of your choice].  Maybe Dany has taken herself inadvertently out of the running by getting stuck in Meereen, and now John is the last hope?  And so forth and so on.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that "ticking the boxes" is overrated. IF Azor Ahai really is meant to be the "savior" type, you're not AA because you do X, Y, and Z, on down the list. You're Azor Ahai when you save the goddamn realm from evil. Or to put it in the context of another of my favorite prophecies to ponder over, there could be multiple valonqars. It could be Jaime or Tyrion, or Sandor, or Arya, or Tommen. Any of them make sense, and all of them have been suggested. But the valonqar isn't really the valonqar until he or she kills Cersei. We're talking about "who is Azor Ahai" when perhaps the proper wording would be "who will become Azor Ahai."

And Tze's smoke-and-salt discussion was pretty inspired, especially the suggestion — which seems incredibly likely, given the scale — that the Wall's ice is seawater and is thus as much salt as the actual sea. I'll do you one further — if Melisandre attempts to use fire magic (involving smoke) to revive Jon, while he's at the Wall, that would mean that he — already an embodiment of both ice and fire where no one else is — would be "reborn" amid smoke (Melisandre's fire magic) and salt (the seawater-built Wall's ice magic). In that way, a prophecy that many seem to only relate to "fire" could have a fulfillment that is equally fire and ice.

PatrickStormborn, on 22 April 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

In ASOS, Stannis tells Davos about the "hero born out of the sea", which seems to imply that the vision included a hero being born amidst smoke and salt from the sea. This is why Melisandre and Maester Aemon believe the place of smoke and salt to be Dragonstone.

Uh, if the Wall is built from seawater, it's also from the sea.

Edited by Apple Martini, 23 April 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[Eyron I]

Quote

The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely
warm, and salty as a tear.

Although I like your theory Tze, I think this was a real tear, it's was warm. It seems to me the door *kissed* Bran on the head. Maybe the door, or rather the soul/souls inhabiting the door, is emotional about Bran going beyond the Wall to be a greenseer, knowing what it means.

tze, on 22 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Some thoughts on the salt/smoke issue:

If someone had a vision long ago and saw "salt and smoke" when AA is reborn, then perhaps the point is the colors, not the substances themselves, especially given that GRRM uses the word "smoke" as a color on several different occasions throughout ASOIAF and the prequel novellas. Salt is white, smoke is grey. This could refer to a child born of the House of Stark---the colors of "smoke and salt" have been their colors for thousands and thousands of years.

I definitely think that Salt and Smoke could refer to the Stark colours. I think you (or someone else) have mentioned this before.

It would also be very fitting if Jon, who is a Targaryen prince (probably) is referred to as someone who was born in the colours white and grey (house Stark), instead of his true (I use this term loosely) colours, red and black, in the prophecy. The prophet would probably not know anything about the heraldry of Westeros so that is a good explanation.

tze, on 22 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

But how sure are we that Bloodraven is still "all about the Targs"? The last time we "saw" him was way back in The Mystery Knight, almost a hundred years before the present day. Between then and now he's gone from occupying a position of Targ-centric authority (Hand of the King, bearing only the dragon sigil, dwelling in the South, etc.) to one completely divorced from Targaryen power and iconography (he's heavily associated with the Blackwood sigil---ravens and a weirwood tree, he's literally bonded with a weirwood tree deep beneath the earth in the frozen lands north of the Wall, and he's hanging with the Children of the Forest and representatives of ancient First Men families (Reed and Stark)). His power no longer derives from "Targ" sources, it derives from sources uniquely associated with the First Men and the Old Gods-based powers. The Targs frequently broke one of the few laws the Old Gods have (no incest!) and are associated with the consuming power of fire, which has been portrayed as the antithesis of Old Gods-based power. Like you say, he reaches out to Brandon Stark, not Daenerys Targaryen.

Basically, I think there's an excellent chance that Bloodraven's plans are not Targ-centric at all. He's clearly concerned with the Others, the Children, the Old Gods, the Watch, and the Starks---he's keeping an eye on events in the south, but his primary concerns do not appear to be with the petty squabbles going on around the Iron Throne (at least, that's not where we most heavily see his influence). Whatever plans he has for Jon, I really doubt they involve a restoration of Targ-based power, given that Jon, like Bloodraven in the present day, is heavy associated with the North and the First Men, not the Targs or Valyrian-based powers. And if his plans are to re-establish the powers of First Men (and given that greenseers seem to basically "be" the Old Gods, the restoration of Old Gods-based power seems like a likely goal for a greenseer), GRRM could be setting him up to conflict with the Targs, not as their beneficiary.

I really agree with this, I think Bloodraven is the protector of the whole realm. He has worked for peace in different ways since he was the Hand of the King - working for the Targaryen rule, and he moved on to become the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch - for protecting the Realm of men, and now he is the greenseer of the Children - and he lingers for us [the Children] for you and for the realms of men (Leaf to Bran in ADwD).
He is not working for the Targaryens cause anymore, I think he is doing exactly what Leaf told Bran, he is lingering for the sake of all men and the Children, possibly all species of Westeros.
It's important to remember, I think, that he now has seen all history and what happened long before the Targaryens came to Westeros, that his loyalty has changed from that is not strange at all, and I think it's rather likely that it has.

I agree that his concerns are less to do with the iron throne, but the means to reach his goals could involve a union of the realm and to put someone on the throne to achieve this. However Jon could also be the King in the North, and it's possible that the raven was referring to this and not King of the Seven Kingdoms.
It's possible he sees the benefit of Jon being a King in the north and the Riverlands, and also being the true heir to the iron throne. I am not lobbying to see Jon on the iron throne, in case anyone wonders, I don't think that is the most likely scenario, but it is possible that is what Bloodraven strives for (uniting the Kingdoms again).

[Dacie]

I'm loving all these ideas

Nothing to add at the moment, just wanted to give props to a great discussion

Edited by GiveMeSomeSnow, 23 April 2012 - 07:05 AM.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Hamsa, on 21 April 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

I know this is kind of late since we were discussing AA vs. tPtwP several pages ago, and I'm definitely not one to trust HBO content, but since GRRM is the one speaking in this behind-the-scenes video, I figure it might be a small nugget of info to add to the conversation.

http://youtu.be/DIe0Q3PgcOw

At about seven minutes in GRRM is explaining the burning of the seven by Mel and says that in return Stannis is given "a token of his role as the prince that was promised by ancient prophecy". I'm not declaring for one side or the other, but just wanted to throw it out there since this makes it seem like AA and tPtwP can be interchangeable.... Or it could just be GRRM trolling as usual and saying in Mel's POV they're the same person. As always, since it's via HBO, take it with a grain of salt.

I feel that the terms should be interchangeable considering TPTWP should be AA reborn, but this is just my understanding, and GRRM has confirmed my belief...for now, anyway.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

The Sunset King, on 22 April 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

The "summer that never ends" might not actually be a literal reference to a permanent seasonal condition.  It could perhaps metaophorically refer to some kind of supposed future utopia or paradisical conditions.

I have always felt this way as well, although I doubt there will be a future utopia or paradise, I do feel there will be some form of extended peace with the Others. The Stark words, "Winter Is Coming," do not relate to only the season itself, but also to harsh times, and conflict, so it's possible.

[Apple Martini]

Eaeron I, on 23 April 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Although I like your theory Tze, I think this was a real tear, it's was warm. It seems to me the door *kissed* Bran on the head. Maybe the door, or rather the soul/souls inhabiting the door, is emotional about Bran going beyond the Wall to be a greenseer, knowing what it means.

This is definitely possible, yeah. It could easily be twofold — the precedent of describing tears as "salty," and showing that there is saltwater — seawater — on the Wall.

[TheSpottedCat]

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first, and then the son, so that both die kings."

Not sure about this, but maybe Khal Drogo and Dany's son Rhaego? You could argue that Drogo died first, in spirit, rather than body, so that Rhaego was theoretically king for a while? Wild guess, I know, and flimsy. But I think that the dragon that is waken from stone in the prophecy refers to Dany's dragons. The eggs were fossilized, but the dragons were woken and hatched.

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

"all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn."

When is this supposed to happen? Is there a "light-switch-flipping" moment when someone "becomes" AA, and then the resurrections "kick in"?

I think this is not part of the prophecy, just Benerro's way of gathering support for Daenerys in Volantis. Kind of like the Pope promising those fighting in the Crusades eternal life or suicide bombers being encouraged to blow themselves up for the promise of Heaven and 77 virgins. Or maybe it's a loosely interpreted part of the prophecy - maybe reborn means going to the Red Faith's version of heaven, being reborn into the afterlife.

Apple Martini, on 18 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Dany/AA is supposed to also usher in a summer that never ends, which sounds good in theory, except that an unending summer would cause the world to be just as off-kilter as it is now. It doesn't "solve" anything. Winter is just as necessary as summer.

You are assuming a normal world like ours, where seasons change frequently. In the world of ASOIAF though, summers and winters can last for many years, and according to legend, even decades. I always wondered how this would work, actually, but trying to work it out just gives me headache.
In any case, the ushering of the never-ending summer could be just a metaphor. Perhaps it means peace and prosperity, or the removal of the Others (which are closely linked with winter and cold, btw). Or it could mean that the climate would become milder, or something to that effect. Maybe it's an environmental message about global warming....

[Apple Martini]

Rhaego was never the king of anything. And I and others have mentioned, there's precedent in the story's supporting material of dragon prophecies not unfolding literally. That's why it's not so simple as to say, "Well it says someone will wake dragons and she has, so it must be her."

Edited by Apple Martini, 23 April 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Eejit]

Apple Martini, on 23 April 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Rhaego was never the king of anything. And I and others have mentioned, there's precedent in the story's supporting material of dragon prophecies not unfolding literally. That's why it's not so simple as to say, "Well it says someone will wake dragons and she has, so it must be her."

Yet it also works figuratively, as it was these same events which started Dany down the path of leadership and rule.

Of course the problem with most figurative interpretations is that they concentrate on "waking dragons" and leave out the more awkward "from stone" part of the prophecy.
Just because prophecy aren't always literal doesn't mean that they never are.

I'm of the opinion that the AA/PTWTP prophecies can or will apply to more than one person, but I believe that the events surrounding Drogo and Rhaego's deaths are the fulfilment of several of them in Dany's case.