213 replies to this topic

[Harle The Handsome]

Jslay427, on 25 October 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

His story has come WAY to far for him to simply be beheaded by Stannis in front of the old gods. That might end up happening in the end, but not before said redemption takes place. (His knowledge of Winterfell/Bolton troops/Bran and Rickon is of a lot of use)

It really depends upon which GRRM writes the next book.  if it is the GRRM that wrote the first three books Theon should be dead soon, but I have my doubts.  The best way I can think of describing it is the distinction between using a headsman and the Old Way.  Ned said that killing should be hard and that a lord had an obligation to hear the last  words and swing the sword himself, and if you couldn't then maybe that person doesn't deserve to die

GRRM has heard their words (technically he wrote them) and has had  trouble killing off players in the game of thrones in the two latest novels.  It seems he has become too attached to people do what is necessary for the story to continue, and I fear someone else is going to have to force GRRM to do what is needed to properly finish the story.

[sumant30]

Quote

It really depends upon which GRRM writes the next book.  if it is the GRRM that wrote the first three books Theon should be dead soon, but I have my doubts.  The best way I can think of describing it is the distinction between using a headsman and the Old Way.  Ned said that killing should be hard and that a lord had an obligation to hear the last  words and swing the sword himself, and if you couldn't then maybe that person doesn't deserve to die

GRRM has heard their words (technically he wrote them) and has had  trouble killing off players in the game of thrones in the two latest novels.  It seems he has become too attached to people do what is necessary for the story to continue, and I fear someone else is going to have to force GRRM to do what is needed to properly finish the story.

I really agree with you on this, i think the plot has become too much messed up with too many characters being introduced.

[The Red Hand]

Harle The Handsome, on 22 November 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

It really depends upon which GRRM writes the next book.  if it is the GRRM that wrote the first three books Theon should be dead soon, but I have my doubts.  The best way I can think of describing it is the distinction between using a headsman and the Old Way.  Ned said that killing should be hard and that a lord had an obligation to hear the last  words and swing the sword himself, and if you couldn't then maybe that person doesn't deserve to die

GRRM has heard their words (technically he wrote them) and has had  trouble killing off players in the game of thrones in the two latest novels.  It seems he has become too attached to people do what is necessary for the story to continue, and I fear someone else is going to have to force GRRM to do what is needed to properly finish the story.

I disagree. GRRM originally planned for a five year gap in which all of the characters would be at differebt points in their respective stories. Most of AFFC and ADWD were all about the journey and growth of characters and not really about events of importance taking place. And Quentyn, Arys, Aemon, Jon?, GRRM has't shied away from death, people just haven't been dropping like flies recently. And Theon has come way too far, been through way too much shit to just suddenly get his head cut off in front of a tree.

[mcb]

The Red Hand, on 06 December 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

I disagree. GRRM originally planned for a five year gap in which all of the characters would be at differebt points in their respective stories. Most of AFFC and ADWD were all about the journey and growth of characters and not really about events of importance taking place. And Quentyn, Arys, Aemon, Jon?, GRRM has't shied away from death, people just haven't been dropping like flies recently.

Quentyn and Arys are extras, who appeared just to be killed couple chapters later. Hardly comparable to Ned, Robb or Tywin. As for Jon being dead, let's wait for the next book. Looks like Maester Aemon is one named character that has bought it recently.

Quote

And Theon has come way too far, been through way too much shit to just suddenly get his head cut off in front of a tree.

"Suddenly"? He has it coming for a long time. Frankly, I expected him to die in ADWD, him surviving the next book is near impossible. Gollum doesn't have a future, he only can have more or less meaningful death.

[TheCurio]

I think the weirwood is going to be covered with crows and they will scare Theon into confessing the truth to Stannis. He will be executed no less, but at least would do something not utterly pathetic for once.

[BlueEyedCrow]

Even though Stannis and Mors view Theon as a turncloak, the fact remains that if Theon were to fully divulge all the information about Bran and Rickon, Stannis and co.  would have to at least consider the implications...

[Tini]

So what if he confesses the truth? Theon is still a murderer, even though the miller's sons may not be as important as the Stark boys. He wouldn't have any proof to back up his confession anyway, he doesn't have any idea what happened to Bran and Rickon. He would still be executed, and it would be utterly pathetic, too.

Stannis and co.  don't need Theon alive to consider the implications. They can do it after Theon is executed for his crimes.

The only thing of value Theon can currently offer is his knowledge of the Boltons and Winterfell that he gained as Ramsay's Reek. And Ramsay wants his Reek back badly. So maybe Stannis decides to use Theon as bait to draw Ramsay out.

[The Red Star]

there's a weird double standard around theon, ya he had two millers boys killed, but so many others have done so much worse and dont get the hatred theon does, tywin has legions of fans for example, theon has suffered enough, p.s. I didnt read all the other comments so if this has already been mentioned then my bad

[firepoet]

I just wanted to talk a bit about Stannis again. I was reading earlier in the topic people discussing if he was a kinslayer.

I think the problem is people are talking about it in legal terms rather than religious terms. The old gods hate kinslaying. That's the end of it. They don't have exceptions or legal loopholes. I think Ned Stark shows us the same attitude of the old gods, when he talks with Jaime. Jaime is a Kingslayer (Which I don't think the old gods care about) who has a really good reason for doing it, but Ned doesn't care. You don't break your oath, end of story.

I think Stannis' problem is that he offended the old gods, not that he offended the laws of man.

I've been thinking about the early history of Westeros. Basically you have the children of the forest and the weirwoods inhabiting all of Westeros. Then the first men come and destroy everything. They fight to a draw with the children of men and they reach a peace. I think this weakened the old gods. Then later the Andals come and further wage war against the old gods by burning the weirwoods and bringing in new gods. I think this weakened the old gods even more.

This is when I think the Others come. Possibly, the Old Gods were no longer strong enough to subdue them and that's when they flood into Westeros. Then the Others are pushed back and I think some of the old traditions are protected to restore that power. The Starks keep some weirwoods protected, the people of the Seven Kingdoms still respect some of the commands of the Old Gods like "don't kill your brother. Guests are protected by hospitality. etc."

But now thousands of years later, the people have mainly forgotten the old religion, most of the weirwoods have been burned, and now they are starting to violate the sacred spirit of Westeros by violating the rules like the killing brothers, and the killing of guests.

So if we accept all that as being true (and most of it is just speculation) then Stannis parading around with a foreign god, burning weirwoods, and killing his brother, he has weakened the ability of the old gods to subdue the Others. This makes him an enemy of Westeros. Maybe not an enemy of its people, but an enemy of its spirit. In this way, even though he took his army to the Wall he's actually the biggest threat to its safety.

I think he'll either turn on Mellisandre and end up reinforcing the power of the Old gods, or he'll pay for what he's done with his life.

[The Red Hand]

mcb, on 06 December 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

"Suddenly"? He has it coming for a long time. Frankly, I expected him to die in ADWD, him surviving the next book is near impossible. Gollum doesn't have a future, he only can have more or less meaningful death.

If Theon was just going to be killed in some random, pathetic way he would have just died when Ramsay sacked Winterfell IMO. Why have him go throughbeing Reek, why have him go through all that just to die? It still doesn't make sense to me. And if Lancel can survive then so can Theon.

[mcb]

The Red Hand, on 07 December 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

If Theon was just going to be killed in some random, pathetic way he would have just died when Ramsay sacked Winterfell IMO. Why have him go throughbeing Reek, why have him go through all that just to die? It still doesn't make sense to me. And if Lancel can survive then so can Theon.

Not "just to die": to be a crucial POV and then to die. GRRM couldn't have written ADWD in its present form without Theon. He was a camera near Ramsay, near Roose, at Moat Cailin, inside Winterfell. The poor schmuck even got a redemption of sort, which pretty much sealed his fate. I guess he could live as a necessary POV in Stannis' camp, but only if Stannis survived for much longer and Davos died. Theon's/Reek's/Theon's history is complete.

[Imjustababydirewolf]

VaramyrSixchins, on 22 April 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

For me, the most compelling thing about Theon are the identity crisis themes. Iron-born heritage vs. Stark influence,  the struggle to shed Reek, etc. From a plot standpoint, I'd like nothing more than for the truth about Bran/Rikkon to emerge, from a literary view, the idea of Theon taking to his grave the thing he's arguably most despised for, yet innocent of, is satisfyingly tragic.

Totally agree with both sides of that (faceless man) coin.

[Prince of the North]

VaramyrSixchins, on 22 April 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

For me, the most compelling thing about Theon are the identity crisis themes. Iron-born heritage vs. Stark influence,  the struggle to shed Reek, etc. From a plot standpoint, I'd like nothing more than for the truth about Bran/Rikkon to emerge, from a literary view, the idea of Theon taking to his grave the thing he's arguably most despised for, yet innocent of, is satisfyingly tragic.

Imjustababydirewolf, on 10 December 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Totally agree with both sides of that (faceless man) coin.

Heh, I do, too.  And it would nicely echo  the circumstances surrounding Jaime Lannister's becoming known as the "Kingslayer" forevermore.  I wonder if the world at large will ever know that Mad King Aerys planned to destroy King's Landing and murder tens of thousands?  Probably not...

[Cold Pie]

mcb, on 07 December 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Not "just to die": to be a crucial POV and then to die.[...]Theon's/Reek's/Theon's history is complete.

On the other hand, you don't have to kill a POV to stop it from being a POV.

Theon needs to make amends, though I think killing Ramsey would be a bit too violent. Theon needs redemption, not revenge.

Edited by Cold Pie, 10 December 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[The Giver]

CrypticWeirwood, on 28 July 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Well, I suppose Bran might be able to run a query through the World Wide Weirnet, but I don’t think we need it to happen in-universe, any moreso than the characters in the tale ever learned that Lord Manderly served up Frey pie or that Oberyn sneaked the tears of Lys into Tywin’s breakfast.  Martin has said that there were  mysteries that characters within the story might never come to understand even though we as readers would.  This could well be one of those.

When did Oberyn put tears of Lys in Tywin's food? I don't remember that at all.

[The Giver]

Harle The Handsome, on 22 November 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

It really depends upon which GRRM writes the next book.  if it is the GRRM that wrote the first three books Theon should be dead soon, but I have my doubts.  The best way I can think of describing it is the distinction between using a headsman and the Old Way.  Ned said that killing should be hard and that a lord had an obligation to hear the last  words and swing the sword himself, and if you couldn't then maybe that person doesn't deserve to die

GRRM has heard their words (technically he wrote them) and has had  trouble killing off players in the game of thrones in the two latest novels.  It seems he has become too attached to people do what is necessary for the story to continue, and I fear someone else is going to have to force GRRM to do what is needed to properly finish the story.

Part of the reason why there haven't been so many deaths recently is because of the cutoff of the last book. GRRM had intended to put the two big battles (in the north and in mereen) in ADWD. Since they have been pushed to TWOW, we won't see some of those major characters die until that book. But there will be death. sadly.

[mcb]

The Giver, on 11 December 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

When did Oberyn put tears of Lys in Tywin's food? I don't remember that at all.

Just a theory. Check out this thread for starters.

[Patrick Tully]

That is something that never occured to me. Very interesting theory. That would also mean Tyrion unintentionally shortened his father's suffering.

[MindLikeWarp]

The Hungry W0lf, on 17 August 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

i though he told asha She has to understand.  She is my sister.  He never wanted to do any harm to Bran or Rickon.  Reek made him kill those boys, not him Reek but the other one.  "I am no kinslayer," he insisted.  
i thought he was refering to himself as a stark when he says i am no kinslayer because he has never been accused of killing a greyjoy so why would he be bothered about being called kinslayer

I thought he doesn't think of himself as a Kinslayer, because he isn't a Stark. It seems like he doesn't understand the kinslayer accusations, as he doesn't understand why anyone would see him as a Stark. He isn't. He is Ironborn.

[Mulled Wino]

ThePrinceOfSunspear, on 02 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Stannis and Theon are both irredeemable characters in my mind. Stannis because of Melisandre and killing Renly.  Theon because of betraying Robb and what he did at Winterfell.

And what Ramsay did to him has broken him mentally and physically. I'd say he could be saved and make an epic hero comeback if he wasn't missing several toes and fingers. Not to mention its hinted at that he may have lost his manhood as well....

I think both will die.

Is Tyrion irredeemable?