88 replies to this topic

[Lyanna Stark]

Faint, on 23 April 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

Which equals what, exactly?

My thinking is that the above information implies collusion by the Faith and Tyrells against the Lannisters . . . but how does Loras help the both of them?

The only thing that comes to mind is Loras serving as the Faith's champion against Cersei's champion in her trial by combat in return for fixing the verdict in Margaery's favor during her own trial.

This is an interesting question as the Faith seems to be in on it,  or maybe they were just discussing his injuries?

Things that speak for Loras being severly injured:

1. His own hot headedness
2. That Margaery is absolutely terrified of what he means to do. If it's Tyrell plotting, Margaery ought to be in on it, most likely

Things that speak against it
1. Aurane Waters is not exactly a truthful individual or in any way reliable.
2. The injuries he describe are too severe for Loras to have fought on

Ambivalent:
The Faith being in on it, and in that case, how?

Crackpot:

Aurane and Loras as lovers, especially since it's been theoriesed elsewhere that Aurane is taking the dromonds to assist the Tyrells and leave Cersei to burn.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 23 April 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[redxavier]

Loras being 'out of action' is a key part of the Grand Tyrell Conspiracy, which is wanting Cersei to blunder and accuse Margarey; Taena Merryweather likely being an agent for the Tyrells (I can't precisely recall at the moment, but didn't Cersei confide somewhat in Lady Merryweather and give an inkling of her plan to accuse Margarey?), the known allegiance of Pycelle (who Margarey went to for the tea), and Loras' absence are all key parts to making that happen.

In terms of the The Faith's possible collusion, remember that they aren't happy with the Lannisters in general, due to the Red Wedding and the execution of Ned on the steps of Baelor's (even before finding out Cersei had the Great Septon murdered). I can't imagine that they would need incentives to support/allow an action that would help depose them.

[Apple Martini]

Count me as someone who think the "official" story about what happened to Loras is bunk. For one thing, we haven't seen it yet. Davos' severed head at White Harbor sends its regards. For another, as others have mentioned, it feeds too well into Cersei's desires. It's also too brutal by half — Loras taking arrows in his leg and should and being out of action is bad enough. Adding in the boiling oil is almost ... gratuitous? As if the person who concocted the story knew that the more gruesome it was, the more Cersei would like it and the more likely she'd be to believe it.

Why they're playing cover-up is a mystery. Did he find something there and need time? Is he even there at all? Did he ever go? Are they planning something else?

I also wouldn't put too much stock into Margaery's horrified reaction. Girlfriend can act very convincingly when she has to, as she demonstrated at her wedding feast when Joffrey dropped dead of poison that she herself may have slipped him.

Edited by Apple Martini, 25 April 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[7V3N]

There is sufficient evidence to suggest another Loras-Gregor battle. Loras was very eager to bring Gregor to justice in AGOT. He is very proud (very much like young Jaime) and has been out to prove himself since Gregor made him look weak.

[the trees have eyes]

MikeDC, on 22 April 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Here's a question... how does Cersei last long enough for Dany to show up and be the more beautiful queen that takes away everything she holds dear? She already commands very little support, and if she kills off the Tyrells, she'll pretty much be at the mercy of which ever of Stannis/Bolton or Aegon shows up first.

With Tywin, Kevan and Jaime gone there is no Lannister figure to countermand her.  With Kevan gone there is no regent and if  Mace goes there is no hand either.  If the Tyrells are taken out there is no credible opposition in KL.  It is a classic power vacuum - whoever is on the spot benefits.  There are Lannister soldiers in KL and the City Watch would likely follow a figure who has been Queen for nearly 20 years and, until recently, Queen Regent as well.  I can see her establishing herself again.

Bolton and Stannis are a long way away and they both have troubles of their own to occupy them - if they aren't both dead or about to die.  The snowstorm we saw in the north in ADWD was truly horrific, if anything even remotely like that falls in the South I don't see a beseiging army being able to move on or invest KL.  Or feed themselves or avoid starving to death if they try.

I also think young Aegon has a very short life expectancy.  Doran's master plan to marry Arianne was in motion since she was a child but didn't survuve a pot of molten gold (luckily for Arianne) and I don't think Varys' master plan is going to survive either - whether it's an arrow attacking Storm's End or a bout of greyscale / the grey plague courtesy of Jon Connington or "patient zero" as he has been hypothesised.

In any event I think Cersei got her reprieve and is cunning enough to use it to snatch back power in the right circumstances which are exactly what Varys has engineered for her.  She will of course be dislodged: by who is the question but, depending on how sacrosanct you view prophecy as in this series, Dany is a very strong contender.

[the trees have eyes]

skins7778, on 22 April 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Loras as tbe Valanqhor is an interesting idea and it led me to another younger brother, Aegon.  Supposedly he is the youngest of Rhaegars children with Elia but I dont see him being mentioned in the conversation unless Ive missed it.

Interesting.  Aegon has been shown to have a temper but I don't see a personal motivation or a sufficiently dark character to fit the bill, i.e. do the deed purely for his own gain.  I don't think it is Loras but if Cersei harms Margaery, more than she already has by putting her at risk, then he surely has a motive, and he is likely to be particularly unhappy that Cersei duped him and lured him off to Dragonstone.

Faint, on 23 April 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

What makes all this doubly odd is that what did happen to him seems to be an open secret among the Faith (and, presumably, the Tyrells) but nobody else . . .

Even Kevan Lannister seems to be caught in the deception . . .

Which equals what, exactly?

My thinking is that the above information implies collusion by the Faith and Tyrells against the Lannisters . . . but how does Loras help the both of them?

The only thing that comes to mind is Loras serving as the Faith's champion against Cersei's champion in her trial by combat in return for fixing the verdict in Margaery's favor during her own trial.

This is a really interesting train of thought.  It's plausible from Loras' point of view and would make the High Septon more of a political realist than the cardboard cut-out of the hairshirt-wearing religious zealot he seemed in AFFC.  I could see that guy praying quite earnestly for the souls of Cersei and Margaery after he had executed them.  

But I bought into that portrait and find it hard to see him as a pragmatist - after all he imprisoned not one but two Queens and three of Margaery's cousins so he has made a lot of enemies very quickly - and he looks more of a theocrat-in-the-making with his faith militant than a pragmatist who will compromise and turn a blind eye to a sinful fornicator, profaning her holy oaths.

Edited by the trees have eyes, 23 April 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[dansnow]

Also in the epilogue Mace says "his sons" will take out the greyjoys after the trial. As a cripple and the heir I assume that Willas won't be commanding a major battle anytime soon. Leading me to believe he slipped up and mean Garlan and Loras. Combine that with the Septa's line about Margaery's brother getting cut off and it's clear something weird is going on.

[the trees have eyes]

Apple Martini, on 23 April 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Why they're playing cover-up is a mystery. Did he find something there and need time? Is he even there at all? Did he ever going? Are they planning something else?

I also wouldn't put too much stock into Margaery's horrified reaction. Girlfriend can act very convincingly when she has to, as she demonstrated at her wedding feast when Joffrey dropped dead of poison that she herself may have slipped him.

I'm not sure about the whole Tyrell meta-conspiracy to poison Joffrey from the start and now to feign Loras' injury in order for Cersei to overreach and bring herself down.

It seems too high risk.  Four Tyrells were imprisoned and accused of fornication because of Cersei's accusations and none of them are in the clear yet, indeed Margaery may still be in very serious danger.

Why would they send Loras to Dragonstone and keep him there for some unexplained purpose when the reaon for his appointment to the Kingsguard was to act as Margaery's protector?

If they wanted to provoke Cersei why were there no troops on hand when she struck agasint Margaery?  Mace was beseiging Storms End and Randall Tarly at Maidenpool.  

It doesn't make sense to allow Margaery to be put at such risk and for her reputation to be so thoroughly tarnished - Pycelle said infront of the entire court that he made moon tea for her on many occasions.  This is treason and she could die.

I just don't see it.  Mace wanted his daughter to be a queen and with the marriage to Joffrey and now Tommen he has achieved that.  His grandchildren will be kings or queens of the Seven Kingdoms.  To risk all this there has to be something to gain and they have advanced their power considerably as it is without playing such high risk games - and unnecessary games as well.

Not every House has to be as ruthless as the Boltons, the Freys or the Lannisters (we know the Starks, Tullys and Arryns are not, nor do the Martells appear to be).  The only evidence agaisnt the Tyrells is The Queen of Thorns poisoning Joffrey and this could have been triggered by Sansa's confirmation of Joffrey's character, not plotted by the whole family from the moment LF turned up in Bitterbridge.  I can't see Margaery doing this myself, this looks like Olenna Tyrell to me.  She is the brains or the evil genius if you prefer, the one pulling the strings - note the scene in ASOS when Tywin tells Tyrion that Mace was well disposed to a match between Cersei and Wyllas until the Queen of Thorns turned him against it.  

I also think it likely she acted alone - the fewer who know a secret, the fewer can give it away - and you wouldn't want someone remembering after the wedding that all the Tyrells were uptight instead of happy on the big day for their House.  You would have to think Margaery one evil cold-hearted bitch to be smiling and laughing throughout her wedding while all the time planning how to murder her husband!  This is a sixteen year-old girl who has just become queen of the Seven Kingdoms not a Faceless Man and people will be watching her during the wedding feast.  

Now her doddering old grandmother, always barking at people and shuffling around, no one is going to pay her too much attention....

[Brucolac]

Loras can't be a champion of the faith against Gregor.  He is a member of the kingsguard, and they seem pretty strict about only kingsguard being able to represent royalty-I doubt they are allowed to stand against them either.

[AegonTheUnlikely]

Quote

With Tywin, Kevan and Jaime gone there is no Lannister figure to countermand her. With Kevan gone there is no regent and if Mace goes there is no hand either. If the Tyrells are taken out there is no credible opposition in KL. It is a classic power vacuum - whoever is on the spot benefits.

Quote

But I bought into that portrait and find it hard to see him as a pragmatist - after all he imprisoned not one but two Queens and three of Margaery's cousins so he has made a lot of enemies very quickly - and he looks more of a theocrat-in-the-making with his faith militant than a pragmatist who will compromise and turn a blind eye to a sinful fornicator, profaning her holy oaths.

Perhaps the new High Septon is our latest entrant into the Game of Thrones...

Edited by AegonTheUnlikely, 23 April 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[7V3N]

Crackpot: Loras was taken and given to Qyburn and is mixed with Gregor to be Robert Strong. The story of him being hurt is all to delay the Tyrells' reaction and suspicion.

[Nfestid]

Faint, on 23 April 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

. . but how does Loras help the both of them?

The only thing that comes to mind is Loras serving as the Faith's champion against Cersei's champion in her trial by combat in return for fixing the verdict in Margaery's favor during her own trial.

Exactly.
The faith and the Tyrells are working together. Margaery will be the new queen after Cersei is dead, and hopefully she will somehow make an alliance with a Targ.
Maybe she will bring peace to the land?
Doubt that last part but otherwise all sound.

[darrylzero]

Nfestid, on 23 April 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Exactly.
The faith and the Tyrells are working together. Margaery will be the new queen after Cersei is dead, and hopefully she will somehow make an alliance with a Targ.
Maybe she will bring peace to the land?
Doubt that last part but otherwise all sound.

I'm not really seeing it.  If Loras serves as the Faith's champion, he'll have to do so in disguise, right?  And I bet he loses, at which point he's revealed.  Cersei is thus found innocent and her rage against the Tyrells boils over (without Kevan to stop her), turning King's Landing into a bloodbath.  I have trouble seeing her survive that, but Qyburn might have more up his sleeve.  I think Cersei has a few more acts of crazed tyranny in her before she bows out.

Edited by darrylzero, 24 April 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Stargareyen]

darrylzero, on 24 April 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I'm not really seeing it.  If Loras serves as the Faith's champion, he'll have to do so in disguise, right?  And I bet he loses, at which point he's revealed.  Cersei is thus found innocent and her rage against the Tyrells boils over (without Kevan to stop her), turning King's Landing into a bloodbath.  I have trouble seeing her survive that, but Qyburn might have more up his sleeve.  I think Cersei has a few more acts of crazed tyranny in her before she bows out.

I second that. The monster man Robert Strong that Qyburn created would not be defeated that easily in a trial by combat. What a waste would that be? SO to fight against him, Loras won't be around, he has suffered enough. It should be some secondary character whose death won't be too hard on the readers. Unless, Loras has been revived from his injuries in a manner similar to Clegane/Strong. Aliens vs Monsters, hah!

I firmly believe Cersei will be strangled by Jamie in some heat of passion and rage, as the prophecy said. He is the only one she trusts entirely, and when she will be in the peak of her tyranny, Jamie will put an end to it.

Loras's role would be similar to Lancel from now on. He'll turn spiritual or something.

[MikeDC]

the trees have eyes, on 23 April 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Interesting.  Aegon has been shown to have a temper but I don't see a personal motivation or a sufficiently dark character to fit the bill, i.e. do the deed purely for his own gain.  I don't think it is Loras but if Cersei harms Margaery, more than she already has by putting her at risk, then he surely has a motive, and he is likely to be particularly unhappy that Cersei duped him and lured him off to Dragonstone.



This is a really interesting train of thought.  It's plausible from Loras' point of view and would make the High Septon more of a political realist than the cardboard cut-out of the hairshirt-wearing religious zealot he seemed in AFFC.  I could see that guy praying quite earnestly for the souls of Cersei and Margaery after he had executed them.  

But I bought into that portrait and find it hard to see him as a pragmatist - after all he imprisoned not one but two Queens and three of Margaery's cousins so he has made a lot of enemies very quickly - and he looks more of a theocrat-in-the-making with his faith militant than a pragmatist who will compromise and turn a blind eye to a sinful fornicator, profaning her holy oaths.

How's this for a horrific possibility: the High Septon could be both a zealot and a political player. He could name King Tommen defender of the faith. A fair number of people have speculated the trial could go wrong for Cersei and end up with Tommen's accidental death at the hands of unGregor. Of course, this is nothing but speculation, but
1) Without Kevan, there's really nobody around to stick up for Tommen if the High Septon puts this sort of idea in his head.
2) UnGregor didn't have any problem killing children even before he was a freakish reanimated corpse. His freakish corpsishness will probably allow him to completely ignore everyone, Cersei included, who tells him to stop.
3) It sort of hearkens back to when an 8 year old was made High Septon by Baelor the Blessed. The Faith seems willing to let crazy things happen to kids.

[crown of gold]

Very unlikely theory but could Loras and Aurane Waters have gone with some of the Queens new ships to find Dany?  The Tyrell's remained loyal to the Targs until the end, and with no real word about what has happened to Loras this is a crazy possibility.

[bent branch]

What about Loras? That is a good question. It seems pretty obvious that Aurane Waters’ description of the battle is pretty hinky. It is even more so after he takes the fleet and disappears. One thing that made me question the ferocity of the battle is this statement that Stannis made to Sam:

“On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain,” the king told Sam. “Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls.”

It seemed to me that Stannis had already resigned himself to losing Dragonstone and simply wanted to get as much obsidian out as he could in the time left. When Aurane and Loras’ military forces arrived they would have found urgent mining operations and not preparations for a huge battle. Given that Aurane was originally Stannis’ man, I feel certain that he would have tried talking before entering into battle with the people on Dragonstone. When this happened, he would have learned about the Others and why Stannis was having obsidian mined. Aurane would have been aware of Stannis believing he was AA and that this meant there was a supernatural enemy that he was supposed to defeat. I think Aurane would have joined in the effort to mine obsidian and get it up to the wall for the battle. While I think there is a slight chance that Aurane has taken the fleet and headed to Dany, I expect Aurane’s fleet to arrive at East Watch loaded with obsidian.

So what about Loras? While Aurane had hand-picked the captains and crews of the ships and they would easily follow him with this change of plan, Loras was on the Kingsguard and his loyalties would not so easily be swayed. Additionally, it would be expected that the men who were under Loras’ command would obey Loras rather than Aurane if the two of them fell into conflict. If a battle occurred at all, I feel certain that it was Loras and his men against the people at Dragonstone and Aurane Waters’ men. I think subterfuge would have been used to minimize the bloodshed. Loras and most of his men would have been taken prisoner.

However, I also think it is possible that Loras was convinced to join in the effort to mine obsidian. I base this on Loras’ personality. First off Loras is, like the much younger Jaime, impulsive and idealistic. Much of this talk of AA and the Others would have been new to Loras. And if he had heard about it before he would have been inclined to accept the general attitude that it was nonsense. But if he heard about it from people who believed in it he might give it a second thought. Helping to save the world is something that would appeal to Loras. As Stargareyan has suggested, Loras has reasons to turn to a more spiritual path (the loss of his beloved Renly and his family’s machinations).

One other reason I have thought of for Loras voluntarily joining this operation is that it would bring him close to Stannis. If he was looking for revenge and a way to end the war, this would be a great opportunity to kill Stannis. Although I feel confident I know what Aurane is up to I really do wonder, “What about Loras?”

[dansnow]

Interesting theory bent branch! Didn't know aurane use to be one of stannis' men. I always got the impression that aurane was trying to improve his own status though and I don't see how he gets that from mining obsidian for stannis, also in the southern culture of mocking enemies beyond the wall as "grumpkins"(sp?) etc I don't see him as the type to immediately believe in the others. But I can still be persuaded, either way interesting idea.

[Arkash]

Excellent theory Bent Branch, never thought about it this way...

[Faint]

bent branch, on 24 April 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

What about Loras? . . .

I think you have to account for the fact that the Faith seems to know what has happened to him. Either that or perhaps I'm reading too much into the passage I quoted in Cersei's POV above. I don't know, to me, it seems that Septa Scolera was about to reveal something before she was stopped.