Jaime's dream, Brienne, UnCat and everything else
Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:14 PM
Naked and alone he stood, surrounded by enemies, with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock, he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head. He was home. He was home and whole.
He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. It felt as good as sex. As good as swordplay. Four fingers and a thumb. He had dreamed that he was maimed, but it wasn’t so. Relief made him dizzy. My hand, my good hand. Nothing could hurt him so long as he was whole.
Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. “Who are you?” he demanded of them. “What business do you have in Casterly Rock?”
They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself.Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.
The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?”
“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.
“Sister, why has Father brought us here?”
“Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.
“Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.”
“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said.
It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .
From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”
The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought.In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.
“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”
“Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!” There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.
Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman’s shape now.
“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”
“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”
In the cool silvery-blue light of the swords, the big wench looked pale and fierce. “I mislike this place.”
“I’m not fond of it myself.” Their blades made a little island of light, but all around them stretched a sea of darkness, unending. “My feet are wet.”
“We could go back the way they brought us. If you climbed on my shoulders you’d have no trouble reaching that tunnel mouth.”
Then I could follow Cersei. He could feel himself growing hard at the thought, and turned away so Brienne would not see.
“Listen.” She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She’s warm. “Something comes.” Brienne lifted her sword to point off to his left. “There.”
He peered into the gloom until he saw it too. Something was moving through the darkness, he could not quite make it out . . .
“A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side.”
“Down here, beneath the Rock?” It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys’s throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord’s eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.
“Is it you, Stark?” Jaime called. “Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead.”
Brienne touched his arm. “There are more.”
He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.
Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.
“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”
“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”
“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.
The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”
“He was your king,” said Darry.
“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.
“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”
“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”
“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.
“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.
“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.
The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.
“No,” he said, “no, no, no. Nooooooooo!”
Heart pounding, he jerked awake,
For some time I was trying to make sense of this dream, and I came with few things.
Green is for the simple events that hadn't happened at the time Jaime dreamed the dream but did happen later (they are confused and mixed with other stuff but still there) :
1, Brienne fighting bear
2, Brienne shouting "sword"
3,Tywin giving Jaime sword
4,Tywin and Joffrey dying
5,Brienne arguing probably in front of Stoneheart that she swore to keep Jaime safe
6, Brienne is warm - alive - no UnBrienne !
Or will happen later:
7,Jaime living after Cersei dies.
8, two riders on pale horses may refer to some disease
Blue is for the small things:
Dayne says exactly the same thing as in Eddard's dream, it may be the last thing Dayne said in his life.
I think darkness is referring to life. The long night is coming and life is about to become the darkness. It's interesting that Jaime specifically denies bears and lions living in there but not direwolves.
Red is for Jon Snow and Jaime connection. Being pulled into darkness under ancient tombs, now who often dreams this dream? What place is that? Jon Snow's place, but where is the place of the KG - along the king.
Also in this dream Jaime is judged by 7 dead men. What they have in common? They were protecting or supposed to protect Jon Snow. Jaime was supposed to keep Rhaegar;s children safe and there is still one left.
Pink is for everything else that I think is important but have no idea what it may actually mean.
Anyone else have any other interpretation of this dream or its part?
Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:09 PM
Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:16 PM
Tywin brought him there, because Tywin wanted Jaime to be a great knight, and therefore is responsible for Jaime's descent into hell on losing his hand and therefore his self as swordsman. That hell is his place indeed.
The riders are on pale horses, since, after all death rides a pale horse.
There's a lot that is not true in this dream. He was not supposed to keep Rhaegar's wife and children safe, he was kept at the side of Aerys at the time of the attack on King's Landing. There are no caves like the one he is descending into under Casterly rock.
The ghosts accuse him, because after all, they are Jaime's ghosts, and he is dreaming about what he knows the accusations are against him. Jaime certainly knows what his oath to the king was.
ETA: You might want to read a lot more into things, because there's certainly enough to work with. The riders are "armoured in snow" - death is a pale rider on a pale horse, and they are all dead. Or you might say they foreshadow the white walkers. There are no bears or lions, just doom, and as you say, he doesn't say "no direwolves", so you could say doom = direwolves.
Only 3 of the KG were protecting Jon, not 5. The other 2 were protecting Rhaegar. Ned was supposed to protect Jon though. And these are not tombs, like under Winterfell, they are caves in the hill or mountain that Casterly Rock is built on. Rhaegar is with the accusers, probably because Jaime admired and looked up to Rhaegar, a great warrior, and from the little we know of their relationship Jaime expected good things from Rhaegar on his return from battle. Rhaegar's last words to Jaime are about the changes he was going to bring. Jaime would feel guilty about the death of Rhaegar's children. It may also foreshadow Jon Snow surviving his attack at the wall and a role Jaime will have protecting him in the ultimate battle we are all expecting at the climax of ASOIAF.
The dream foreshadows Brienne in the bear pit, of course, but Jaime would know there was a bear pit at Harrenhall.
Edited to correct contradiction between Wiki and book
Edited by Fragile Bird, 20 April 2012 - 02:18 PM.
Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:25 PM
I think the more subtle meaning would be that the Jaime we're about to be introduced to is not the character we used to know. He is learning he has other skills beyond his fighting prowess and so are we. In the first two novels he was the Kingslayer and a revered fighter, now he's Jaime when we're inside his head. At this point in the novels we see his ability to be a shrewd political manipulator and strategist. Brienne's sword doesn't go dark because she can still fight but Jaime no longer fights with his sword hand, his role has changed.
Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:27 PM
I've always thought this dream referred to the order of death, because Jaime sees Cersei standing with Lannisters already dead or very close to death (Tywin). So, Cersei, along with Tywin and Joff have gone before Jaime into these caves, in other words, into death.
They turn their backs on Jaime and leave him in the abyss because he turned his back on them in life: Joffrey was dismissed as a "squirt in Cersei's cunt;" Tywin offered Jaime everything to return to be his heir -- the Rock, the gold, the girl -- but Jaime refused; Cersei begged for Jaime's return, and he ignored her. Note that some of these things happen after the dream.
One, or both, of the swords is Oathkeeper -- probably the one carried by Brienne. He hadn't been given Oathkeeper yet, although in the dream his father says "I gave you a sword." The significant thing for my interpretation, though, is the fire. Could this be R'hllor's fire, like that used by Beric when he fought Sandor? Whatever, his fire burns out before Brienne's, which means to me that she's the last ser standing. So predictions that Jaime will kill Brienne are incorrect, although she may kill him, or otherwise cause his death.
I interpreted the presence of the knights and Rhaegar as reminders of Jaime's lost honor, and perhaps how he himself doubted that his reason for killing Aerys was enough. He could/should have done more, saved Elia and the children, perhaps joined his brothers in death? He and Ser Barristan were the only members of Aery's kingsguard left after Robert's rebellion, right? and Barristan had been badly wounded at the Trident. Jaime was left to his doom in a black abyss because he failed to recover his honor. So much for redemption arc.
I didn't get a Jon connection, but I like it.
Note that Jaime does not see Tyrion, Myrcella or Tommen among the dead Lannisters. To me that means they will survive both Cersei and him, putting a different spin on Maggie's prophecy, which hints that Cersei will lose all her children before she dies.
ETA: Jaime is judged by seven dead men -- a reference to the seven of the faith?
Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 19 April 2012 - 07:31 PM.
Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:08 PM
And it seems that Cersei is going to die before Tommem and Myrcella, I hope that'll occur in TWOT.
Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:31 PM
Btw, nice about the connection to Jon Snow.
Posted 19 April 2012 - 11:59 PM
Here's the Daenerys excerpt:
The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.
His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but he did not permit the words to pass his lips. “He swore a vow to protect his king’s life with his own. Then he opened that king’s throat with a sword.”
Not that it really matters to the big picture, I'm really just nitpicking at this point, heh. This whole topic is interesting. Am I the only one who thought of the Others when I read the "
They were armored all in snow" line? Wonder what's the link between the Others and Jaime...
Edited by Morrigan, 20 April 2012 - 12:08 AM.
Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:34 AM
Brienne's sword remained lit, as she was the model of honour which was the catalyst for his self-recriminations. IMO.
Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:38 AM
Snow seems to point towards Jon Snow, which links up with Jaime feeling guilty about Rhaegar's children dying. Some of the Kingsguard also guarded Jon Snow in the Tower of Joy, so there is still a child of Rhaegar left in the world, and he is figuratively "armoured in Snow". And he is involved in the fight against the Others too. I hope this means my pet theory of Jaime remaining in the Kingsguard will come true, even if Dany or Jon (or both!) end up ruling the Seven Kingdoms.
It's interesting as well that the shade Brienne addresses is Rhaegar's and that Jaime names Rhaegar "rightful heir of the Iron Throne". More hints of Jaime serving future Targaryens or why not a son of Rhaegar? Rhaegar also accuses Jaime "I left my wife and children in your hands" (note "hands" not "care" or anything else, as if Jaime literally held their lives in his hands). It seems Jaime feels the worst betrayal he did, he did against Rhaegar.
Edited by Lyanna Stark, 20 April 2012 - 01:38 AM.
Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:38 AM
The second meaning of course it Oathkeeper, which Tywin had made for Jaime and which Jaime passed on to Brienne. "I gave you a sword but you rejected it and all it stood for" as the extra meaning, signifying the final Jaime/Tywin rift.
“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.
This perfectly echoes Jaime's 'so many oaths' speech to Catelyn - when oaths come into conflict, which one do you keep? Where is your honourable duty? Especially when the first of those oaths would be as a knight, including to protect the weak, etc. I've always read it as Jaime longing for acceptance, or at least understanding, from those men whom he so admired and served with.
Brienne's sword shines blue, which is her colour - her amazing eyes, her armour at Renly's tournament, the dress in KL that Jaime thinks suits her. And of course, sapphires.
Edited by Currawong, 20 April 2012 - 02:39 AM.
Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:52 AM
Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:56 AM
I think this dream mainly signifies Jaime's change as a person. Like many of the above said, he lost his sword arm, the one thing that distinguished him for the past 30 years. He has finally opened his eyes regarding Cersei. And he met Brienne, the epitome of honor, who he has come to admire and possibly love.
Jaime's transformation has been one of my favourite things in the series.
Posted 20 April 2012 - 04:17 AM
I do believe that he saw dead Lannisters - Joff, Tywin and Cersei. (he doesnt see Kevan but i guess he isnt that close family like the rest) Which leads me to conclusion that Cersei will probably die before him and before Tommen and Myrcella making Maggys prophecy invalid.
I do believe that Brienne is not UnBrienne and that she will be his champion in trial with Stoneheart.
Interesting, but in this dream he has two hands, right? And in his dream in Riverrun from the end of the Feast he has only one. Any theories about that?
Posted 20 April 2012 - 04:34 AM
Could be or could not be or maybe its just me hoping she doesnt die soon. I love the way she keeps messing things up and thinks she is a major player. Plus I would like to see her face to face with Dany, YG or Jon.
Posted 20 April 2012 - 04:36 AM
If the last one is correct, Jaime will at some point go to Asshai. Given his own dream's connection to darkness in general, I think Asshai fits the bill. And the word "doom" might also refer to Valyria.
And why would Jaime go there? Will it be important for the possible future effort to forge Lightbringer for the true AA? The appearances of Rhaegar and the Kingsguard could well be foreshadowing that Jaime will know the story of R+L=J and will thus swear fealty to Jon in their memory. But with what we are given, we have nothing for certainty.
Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:13 AM
Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:16 PM
Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:31 PM
Good point. Rhaegar's armour is also black with red rubies (and maybe other red details) and I think either Dany or Jon or both have dreamt of being armoured in black. The weirwood colouring also reflect the main theme of red and white - fire and ice, so it reinforces that Rhaegar's shadow in this dream is telling Jaime of another "Rhaegar" made up of those components.
Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:35 PM
And as Blisscraft noted, this is his dream while sleeping on the weirwood stump.