40 replies to this topic

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Besides teaching Arya obviously.

We know:

The Faceless Men were founded by Valyrian Slaves
Braavosi have no love for dragons
The Iron Bank is helping Stannis claim the Iron Throne
Daenerys has dragons
Daenerys however also frees slaves
The Citadel also has no love for dragons
The Citadel has "The Death of Dragons"
The slaves in Volantis want to be freed

We think:
Jaqen is attempting to steal "The Death of Dragons"
Daenerys is heading to Westeros with at least 1 dragon
Slaves in other Free Cities likely would welcome freedom


So, from that it would seem to me that the Faceless Men (presumably acting on the command of Braavosi high command or the Iron Bank?) are helping Daenerys by removing the information the Citadel know on how to stop her dragons. Now it seems odd that a city that hates dragons and was founded by former Valyrian slaves would help a descendent of Valyria who has brought dragons back, but would Braavos let their feelings for slavery overcome their feelings for dragons?

Now I'm not sure how good relations between Braavos and the remaining free cities are but it initially seems unlikely that Braavos (assuming the major institutions cooperate in the city) would help both Stannis and Daenerys claim Westeros, so with that in mind are the Iron Bank/FM playing a game to put Dany on the Iron Throne presuming she helps the slaves in Volantis and the other free cities? It seems a bit odd but I'd imagine the Iron Bank aren't beyond betraying Stannis if they get what they want from Dany, and the Faceless Men would likely just do as they were told with all the money the Iron Bank can throw at them.

So if they do help Dany it would confirm that Jaqen is stealing "The Death of Dragons" as the Citadel would oppose her and have the knowledge to deal with her trump card.

I'm not sure if I fully agree with it myself but I was wondering whether Braavos would oppose her due to her dragons or help her due to her anti-slavery stance and I put this together. But problems obviously remain with Stannis and if Braavos doesn't particularly care for slaves in the other Free Cities. Another possibility is that Jaqen is stealing the book for the Faceless Men's dragon egg that they almost certainly received from Euron Greyjoy.

So, what do you all think?

Edited by Awesome Oberyn Martell, 21 April 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[protar]

I think that a civil war in Braavos could be being set up. They're anti-dragon and valyrian, but also anti-slavery, so when a Valyrian descendant with dragons appears freeing slaves there's going to be a divide. I'm thinking the FM on the anti-dany side, and perhaps the Moonsingers on the pro-Dany side.

[Archmaester]

Interesting stuff!

If Jaqen is indeed in Oldtown to steal "the Death of Dragons" he may be doing so to enable the braavosi to kill the dragons, rather than to stop the maesters from doing so?

I have only read Dance once so far and am currently only up to the Kingsmoot on my Feast re-read so I admit my memory is a bit hazy, but I don't remember anything about the Faceless Men receiving a dragons egg from Euron? Can anyone tell where this information is from? Thanks!

[Josephxoxo]

Braavos is one of the biggest cities I think. We know the Iron Bank of Braavos will support Stannis with sellswords. And because it is one of the biggest cities it obviously has a lot of war ships. I can really see Braavosi opposing Daenerys because of the commitment to Stannis.

[protar]

Archmaester, on 21 April 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Interesting stuff! If Jaqen is indeed in Oldtown to steal "the Death of Dragons" he may be doing so to enable the braavosi to kill the dragons, rather than to stop the maesters from doing so? I have only read Dance once so far and am currently only up to the Kingsmoot on my Feast re-read so I admit my memory is a bit hazy, but I don't remember anything about the Faceless Men receiving a dragons egg from Euron? Can anyone tell where this information is from? Thanks!

Euron mentions he had a dragon egg which he through into the sea in a rage, but considering a dragon egg is a pretty valuable thing to throw away people have speculated that he might actually have used it to pay the FM to kill Balon.

[Archmaester]

protar, on 21 April 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Euron mentions he had a dragon egg which he through into the sea in a rage, but considering a dragon egg is a pretty valuable thing to throw away people have speculated that he might actually have used it to pay the FM to kill Balon.

Ahh of course, makes sense, thanks!

[The Last Direwolf]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 April 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Besides teaching Arya obviously.

We know:

The Faceless Men were founded by Valyrian Slaves
Braavosi have no love for dragons
The Iron Bank is helping Stannis claim the Iron Throne
Daenerys has dragons
Daenerys however also frees slaves
The Citadel also has no love for dragons
The Citadel has "The Death of Dragons"
The slaves in Volantis want to be freed

We think:
Jaqen is attempting to steal "The Death of Dragons"
Daenerys is heading to Westeros with at least 1 dragon
Slaves in other Free Cities likely would welcome freedom


So, from that it would seem to me that the Faceless Men (presumably acting on the command of Braavosi high command or the Iron Bank?) are helping Daenerys by removing the information the Citadel know on how to stop her dragons. Now it seems odd that a city that hates dragons and was founded by former Valyrian slaves would help a descendent of Valyria who has brought dragons back, but would Braavos let their feelings for slavery overcome their feelings for dragons?

Now I'm not sure how good relations between Braavos and the remaining free cities are but it initially seems unlikely that Braavos (assuming the major institutions cooperate in the city) would help both Stannis and Daenerys claim Westeros, so with that in mind are the Iron Bank/FM playing a game to put Dany on the Iron Throne presuming she helps the slaves in Volantis and the other free cities? It seems a bit odd but I'd imagine the Iron Bank aren't beyond betraying Stannis if they get what they want from Dany, and the Faceless Men would likely just do as they were told with all the money the Iron Bank can throw at them.

So if they do help Dany it would confirm that Jaqen is stealing "The Death of Dragons" as the Citadel would oppose her and have the knowledge to deal with her trump card.

I'm not sure if I fully agree with it myself but I was wondering whether Braavos would oppose her due to her dragons or help her due to her anti-slavery stance and I put this together. But problems obviously remain with Stannis and if Braavos doesn't particularly care for slaves in the other Free Cities. Another possibility is that Jaqen is stealing the book for the Faceless Men's dragon egg that they almost certainly received from Euron Greyjoy.

So, what do you all think?

I don't think that the Braavosi are particularly opposed to dragons as such, just the slavery that came with them last time. The threat of the new dragon kings restoring slavery is obviously anulled by Dany's fierce opposition to it, so by supporting Dany they could effectively smash the entire slave trade and gain a powerful ally in Daenerys. Supporting Stannis with loans on the other hand may not benefit them so much. Stannis is the type of man who would not hold the Iron Throne for too long - he would take some lord's son who has committed some crime and punish him in a way that appeals to his harsh sense of justice (i.e. execution, loss of fingers, etc). Before you know it, that lord has raised in rebellion and there's a civil war. Also, there's the matter of his conversion to R'hllor. The Seven Kingdoms will not take kindly to such a huge change in the ideological sphere. This will only serve to raise tensions as well. When Stannis has his stiff arse kicked off the Iron Throne, how will he be able to pay back both his and Robert's debts? Daenerys however could bring stability back to the Seven Kingdoms and bring in a new age of prosperity that could raise the money to easily pay back the Iron Bank. It would be best for Braavos to support Dany.

[Howling Mad]

IMHO Yes, they will serve as an example to others after whomever gains the Ironthrone comes back and burns Braavos to the ground for I&V, IB and HoBW playing all sides against each other.  Too bad LF isn't Braavosi he would fit right in.

[PrinceAdam]

What im most interested in is the Braavosi Navy. We can speculate it is one of the greatest but im interested to see what they do with it or if they go to war. Especially now since Volantis has declared war on Dany.

[Dornish Bannerman]

I think there will come a battle between the Braavosi Fleet and the Northern Fleet that Manderly has been building. Not sure for what reason, but I just think it will happen.

Also, now that I think about it Stannis will have a lot of men after buying sellswords. There are three thousand mountain clansmen, he came with a thousand, Manderly should have about four thousand, in addition to Glovers, Umbers, Karstarks and Tallharts. And he is purchasing twenty thousand sellswords.

[The Last Direwolf]

Dornish Bannerman, on 21 April 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

I think there will come a battle between the Braavosi Fleet and the Northern Fleet that Manderly has been building. Not sure for what reason, but I just think it will happen.

Also, now that I think about it Stannis will have a lot of men after buying sellswords. There are three thousand mountain clansmen, he came with a thousand, Manderly should have about four thousand, in addition to Glovers, Umbers, Karstarks and Tallharts. And he is purchasing twenty thousand sellswords.

If that happens, Manderly's fleet will be destroyed - there's no question of it.

[Ser Lepus]

protar, on 21 April 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

I think that a civil war in Braavos could be being set up. They're anti-dragon and valyrian, but also anti-slavery, so when a Valyrian descendant with dragons appears freeing slaves there's going to be a divide. I'm thinking the FM on the anti-dany side, and perhaps the Moonsingers on the pro-Dany side.

I doubt that. While they are anti-dragon, anti-valyrian and anti-slavery, those are things that affected their ancestors centuries ago...I think their sense of community is stronger than some ideological differences based on things that happened so long ago.

Americans, for example, can discuss about the legitimacy of attacking and overthowing a tyrant (allowing the tyrant to  rule vs. getting rid of him but bombing the people you are supposedly setting free) but I can´t see them starting a civil war over that.

[Dornish Bannerman]

The Last Direwolf, on 21 April 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

If that happens, Manderly's fleet will be destroyed - there's no question of it.

Yes, but it would be awesome anyway.

[Apple Martini]

If Jaqen is stealing the book, I'd wager it's more so that the Faceless Men can kill the dragons, not keep them from being killed. Daenerys frees slaves (to starve, be murdered and die of disease, but that's beside the point). ... BUT her dragons will outlive her, and there's no guarantee that whoever ends up with them next will be abolitionist or in any way not an asshole. So by that measure, I don't think Dany's dragons get a "get out of jail free" card just because their current master doesn't like slaves.

Edited by Apple Martini, 21 April 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[Ice Turtle]

I really hope Braavos will have some part to play. Their fleet must be impressive. Also they would make great ally for the north (one lack wood the other ships and food)
Theoretically slavery or not, if Dany needed something  from Braavos and they refused her what would she do? Turn around with tail between her legs or take what she wants?  
Anyway, Euron who is practicing slavery is on his way to steal a dragon and the biggest question is why FM ever helped him in the past.
One last interesting fact, Braavos has probably the highest population density in whole ASOIAF world and is located on small area not to mention entirely dependent on ships. There is absolutely no one more valuable to dragons. If I was in position of power in Braavos and dragons reappeared I would want to know how to kill them.

[Lord Damian]

The Braavosi Navy vs Vicarion's Iron Fleet.

[jarl the climber]

Heres the thing, rigth now Bravos has no presence in Slavers Bay. They have yet to show any interest in trading with Mereeen even though it is now emancipated. I  do not know what they would want to trade for their. Volantis is a rival and if they lose the fleet supposedly heading  for  Mereen, I don't know if this opens anything up for Bravos. Saan has returned to the Stepstones, Aurane Waters might be there, the Volantenes and the Ironborn have recently gone through and the Redwynes are headed trough there on the way back to the Arbor. The Iron Bank guy mentions strange sails there and I do not know if they are suffering losses to their shipping and if they will do anything about it. I do not think the North would even presume to challenge Bravos at Sea. Tyrion had Mycella go to Dorne via Bravos in the hopes that Stannis would not risk attacking a Bravosi ship and its nuetrality if she was on it.

It is an open question if the loan to Stannis would be a breach of this nuetrality that Tyrion talked of. Its not outside of the realm of possiblity that the loans could become a Caus Belli with the Iron throne and Bravos. So Bravos could end up being a participant in the war on Stannis's side.

Edited by jarl the climber, 21 April 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[protar]

Ser Lepus, on 21 April 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I doubt that. While they are anti-dragon, anti-valyrian and anti-slavery, those are things that affected their ancestors centuries ago...I think their sense of community is stronger than some ideological differences based on things that happened so long ago.

Americans, for example, can discuss about the legitimacy of attacking and overthowing a tyrant (allowing the tyrant to  rule vs. getting rid of him but bombing the people you are supposedly setting free) but I can´t see them starting a civil war over that.

Perhaps a civil war is a bit extreme, but a divide at the very least. Cultures in ASOIAF are not like modern day cultures. They hold grudges for incredibly long times. The Ghiscari nations for example still hate people of Valyrian extent because their ancestors overthrew the Ghiscari empire 5000 years ago. So the anti-dragon prejudice in Braavos will still be pretty high.

Edited by protar, 22 April 2012 - 03:39 AM.

[Dornish Bannerman]

If the Braavosi Fleet go for it, they can probably seal the narrow sea and prevent Daenerys from crossing at all. If that is their intent.

[Dr. Pepper]

Dornish Bannerman, on 22 April 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

If the Braavosi Fleet go for it, they can probably seal the narrow sea and prevent Daenerys from crossing at all. If that is their intent.

Except Daenerys has dragons.  Dragon fire trumps wooden ships any day.