Heresy 10

[Black Crow]

Rewatching and freezing the scenes where the Other takes the baby,it seems pretty clear that the Other kills the baby with a bite.That's when he stops crying.Season 2,ep 2

So is it hot blood it wants or a lifeforce/soul?

Human sacrifice is bad=major theme,imo.

Nah, played the same game, didn't see it that way, but on the subject of human sacrifice...

I’ve been giving some thought to the nature of death. In Westeros there doesn’t seem to be a concept of an afterlife with all good girls and boys going to heaven when they die. Insofar as it is discussed at all the impression I get is that the spirit goes into the ground with the body, whether buried or gradually decomposing on top of it. Burying is obviously better because it puts it directly into the ground and the bones “remember” because they’re the last part of the body to go and the fading spirit with them.

This may explain the swords in the Winterfell crypts. Because the bodies and bones are laid in stone rather than going into the earth the spirits are still there and need to be bound there by iron.

Conversely, burning of bodies, as practiced in a number of external cultures seems to be aimed at releasing the spirit from the bones. The Dothraki as far as I recall are the only ones to talk of an afterlife, riding in the sky, but to get there the spirit needs to be released from the body by burning it.

The Red Lot as we know are also quite keen on burning things, but also equally keen in some circumstances in keeping the flame alive. Maester Aemon’s famous comment about fire consuming may be relevant to this in that the fire consumes the body, releasing the spirit to the air – or retaining it within the flame for so long as the flame can be maintained.

This then brings us on to the question of Wights, of both kinds. Those few we’ve seen raised by the red lot had their spirits “captured” by arresting decay through a magical appliance of Fire through the medium of a kiss. Those up north on the other hand are already preserved from decay by the cold and therefore more numerous when the mist of Ice crystals captures their spirit.

The exception obviously are wargs, who as we saw in the Varamyr prologue can escape their dead bodies and seek a temporary host. Thus Varamyr’s body wasn’t raised up again as a wight because there was no spirit in it to capture. In time Varamyr expects to fade away inside his host, as he would presumably do in the earth, but its interesting that we experienced his progress through the air as he moved from his dead body to the host – something we’ve never seen in “living” warging (except in Bran’s first vision when Bloodraven showed him the world) and certainly seemed to be a new experience for Varamyr.

The point here being that because Wargs can leave their own bodies in life they can also do it in death. Varamyr appeared to be sucked into One Eye at the end, but an exceptionally powerful warg might be able to remain free…

[Lummel]

Not sure about Heaven, but they certainly have a concept of Hell in the religion of the Seven. There's a line like - 'thankfully there are seven hells because one could not contain both cleganes' probably AGOT. There's also a mention of a lord of Hell in TSS.

[Free Northman]

Where is it mentioned?

The reason Martin was asked about the presence of pre-Targaryen Dragons in Westeros was because there are legends from the Age of Heroes about warriors slaying dragons in Westeros. I believe these legends are mentioned in the Dunk and Egg novels.

Martin then stated that there were dragons all over the world in the distant past, including in Westeros, and that's where these legends had their origin.

[Black Crow]

An important new description of the Others/White Walkers by GRRM!!!!

In a bookshop today I noticed and browsed through the collected volume of comic book episodes. Don't fancy it, not that keen on the artwork and prefer the original anyway, but...

At the back there were some essays by the artist, one Tommy Patterson, discussing how he arrived at visualisation of the various characters. That includes the White Walkers and they gave him no end of trouble since GRRM has so far said so very little. Discussions and an exchange of emails followed culiminating in this:

The Others are not dead. They are a strange, beautiful...think, ok... the Sidhe made of ice, something like that... a different sort of life... inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Now OK these are the instructions to help an artist visulaise what they look like, but...

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Aos_S%C3%AD

Interesting eh?

And by the by, he confirms that their armour is indeed stealth armour, as in its not just the fact its made of ice. GRRM was also apparently much taken with the visualisation by John Picacio for the calendar, and both artists are trying to represent a mist of ice crystals smoking away as they move...

[alienarea]

An important new description of the Others/White Walkers by GRRM!!!!

In a bookshop today I noticed and browsed through the collected volume of comic book episodes. Don't fancy it, not that keen on the artwork and prefer the original anyway, but...

At the back there were some essays by the artist, one Tommy Patterson, discussing how he arrived at visualisation of the various characters. That includes the White Walkers and they gave him no end of trouble since GRRM has so far said so very little. Discussions and an exchange of emails followed culiminating in this:

The Others are not dead. They are a strange, beautiful...think, ok... the Sidhe made of ice, something like that... a different sort of life... inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Now OK these are the instructions to help an artist visulaise what they look like, but...

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Aos_S%C3%AD

Interesting eh?

And by the by, he confirms that their armour is indeed stealth armour, as in its not just the fact its made of ice. GRRM was also apparently much taken with the visualisation by John Picacio for the calendar, and both artists are trying to represent a mist of ice crystals smoking away as they move...

Cool find. Also has a few Sith in the wiki.

I recently read Supernatural by Graham Hancock, with a very interesting approach to fairies.

A little off topic, or maybe not, it might be worth to investigate the wildling witches like Mona White Mask and their connection to wargs like Borroq and Varamyr. Maybe that is Melisandre's origin?

[Frey Pie]

An important new description of the Others/White Walkers by GRRM!!!!

In a bookshop today I noticed and browsed through the collected volume of comic book episodes. Don't fancy it, not that keen on the artwork and prefer the original anyway, but...

At the back there were some essays by the artist, one Tommy Patterson, discussing how he arrived at visualisation of the various characters. That includes the White Walkers and they gave him no end of trouble since GRRM has so far said so very little. Discussions and an exchange of emails followed culiminating in this:

The Others are not dead. They are a strange, beautiful...think, ok... the Sidhe made of ice, something like that... a different sort of life... inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Now OK these are the instructions to help an artist visulaise what they look like, but...

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Aos_S%C3%AD

Interesting eh?

And by the by, he confirms that their armour is indeed stealth armour, as in its not just the fact its made of ice. GRRM was also apparently much taken with the visualisation by John Picacio for the calendar, and both artists are trying to represent a mist of ice crystals smoking away as they move...

Does this point towards the fact that Crasters children are not sacrifices then? If theyre not dead, but transformed then it makes sense for me then.

Catelyn also strikes me as very like a banshee!

[Brave Danny Flint]

Nah, played the same game, didn't see it that way, but on the subject of human sacrifice... I’ve been giving some thought to the nature of death. In Westeros there doesn’t seem to be a concept of an afterlife with all good girls and boys going to heaven when they die. Insofar as it is discussed at all the impression I get is that the spirit goes into the ground with the body, whether buried or gradually decomposing on top of it. Burying is obviously better because it puts it directly into the ground and the bones “remember” because they’re the last part of the body to go and the fading spirit with them. This may explain the swords in the Winterfell crypts. Because the bodies and bones are laid in stone rather than going into the earth the spirits are still there and need to be bound there by iron. Conversely, burning of bodies, as practiced in a number of external cultures seems to be aimed at releasing the spirit from the bones. The Dothraki as far as I recall are the only ones to talk of an afterlife, riding in the sky, but to get there the spirit needs to be released from the body by burning it. The Red Lot as we know are also quite keen on burning things, but also equally keen in some circumstances in keeping the flame alive. Maester Aemon’s famous comment about fire consuming may be relevant to this in that the fire consumes the body, releasing the spirit to the air – or retaining it within the flame for so long as the flame can be maintained. This then brings us on to the question of Wights, of both kinds. Those few we’ve seen raised by the red lot had their spirits “captured” by arresting decay through a magical appliance of Fire through the medium of a kiss. Those up north on the other hand are already preserved from decay by the cold and therefore more numerous when the mist of Ice crystals captures their spirit. The exception obviously are wargs, who as we saw in the Varamyr prologue can escape their dead bodies and seek a temporary host. Thus Varamyr’s body wasn’t raised up again as a wight because there was no spirit in it to capture. In time Varamyr expects to fade away inside his host, as he would presumably do in the earth, but its interesting that we experienced his progress through the air as he moved from his dead body to the host – something we’ve never seen in “living” warging (except in Bran’s first vision when Bloodraven showed him the world) and certainly seemed to be a new experience for Varamyr. The point here being that because Wargs can leave their own bodies in life they can also do it in death. Varamyr appeared to be sucked into One Eye at the end, but an exceptionally powerful warg might be able to remain free…

It is an interesting point that you mention about there not being much references to a Heaven as such being part of Westeros culture. There seems to be more meaning placed in to the deads’ last resting places and ties with ancestry i.e. you are buried with your ancestors and take your place among them. This is ritualistic across Westeros. The River Lords of Riverrun do use fire as part of the burial ritual but are unique among the Westeros nobility. The River Lords seem to be unique in Westeros in that they don’t bury their dead but have their boats set alight before sinking into the river “watery halls where the Tully’s held court.” (Catelyn, 4 SOS:1).

The Ironborn “drown” their worshippers so that when they die they can return to the Drown God. Victarion mentions in one of his POVs that he feels sick watching the villagers bury their dead in earth. His brother Damphair also refers to watery halls where his ancestors are waiting for him.

The Dothraki also use fire as part of their burials “when a horse lord dies...the bodies are burned in the open sky, and the Kahl rises on his fiery steed to take his place among the stars.” (Dany, GOT)

Each of these cultures seem to have a peace associated with returning the dead to their ancestors. As in the characters are reassured that when the proper rituals are adhered the dead can find peace in the afterlife.

What strikes me is that the Starks find the burial place not reassuring at all and, in truth, downright terrifying. None of the Starks find comfort down in the crypts, the children seem to all have nightmares about it and none draw any kind of peace or solace from their ancestors place of rest. Ned goes to the Godswood for his peace, not where his ancestors are buried. Jon dreams of going down there only to find eternal blackness (and possibly his mother) and wakes up screaming. Ned refers to hell only once “Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.” (Eddard, 4: GOT). I cannot shake the possibility that the frozen hell he is referring to is the crypts under Winterfell. There are hot springs under Winterfell, as we know from the warmth in the walls and the steaming lake that forms up after the siege. However when Ned describes the crypts “he could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth.” Why is the crypt so cold with a natural spring underneath Winterfell? There is definitely more to the burial practise of the dead and what it means for the Starks. Preserving them in cold, bounding them with Iron. Lyanna is down there, does she have a sword across her knees?

[The Lost Lord]

Great find BC! I found an online link on Google Books:

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

[Iceborn]

OK we always knew he was sitting on something about the others. and elegant, dangerous could be anything, but we must avoid the HBO trap, they are running on inside knowledge however GRRM has stated that the two series are DIFFERENT he is trying to tell one story while catering for two audiences, so don't expect direct parallels. the whole other scene might be there to give some pace to the show in case of funding loss. And I thing judging on the prologue of aGoT that had been heresyed to death, they have a sense of honor and eh stateliness? but when the enemy falls it is a free - for - all.

[Free Northman]

An important new description of the Others/White Walkers by GRRM!!!! In a bookshop today I noticed and browsed through the collected volume of comic book episodes. Don't fancy it, not that keen on the artwork and prefer the original anyway, but... At the back there were some essays by the artist, one Tommy Patterson, discussing how he arrived at visualisation of the various characters. That includes the White Walkers and they gave him no end of trouble since GRRM has so far said so very little. Discussions and an exchange of emails followed culiminating in this: The Others are not dead. They are a strange, beautiful...think, ok... the Sidhe made of ice, something like that... a different sort of life... inhuman, elegant, dangerous. Now OK these are the instructions to help an artist visulaise what they look like, but... http://en.wikipedia....iki/Aos_S%C3%AD Interesting eh? And by the by, he confirms that their armour is indeed stealth armour, as in its not just the fact its made of ice. GRRM was also apparently much taken with the visualisation by John Picacio for the calendar, and both artists are trying to represent a mist of ice crystals smoking away as they move...

I agree with this. This fits with my view that the Others are not evil, but alien. But alien in a way that makes their existence mutually exclusive with that of humans.

Kind of like an approaching gamma ray burst, or alien virus, or whatever.

The point is, they aren't the reborn souls of ancient Starks or any such thing. They are an alien species. Maybe native to this world but frozen under the polar ice cap for millions of years, until the Hammer of the Waters released them along with the Dragons, or whatever.

They are alien and its either them or us.

[Frey Pie]

I agree with this. This fits with my view that the Others are not evil, but alien. But alien in a way that makes their existence mutually exclusive with that of humans.

They are alien and its either them or us.

I agree with you up to a certain point. Iv always seen the Others as the ultimate evil, whereas the fight for the iron throne is like a sideshow. I do agree its us or them though

As an aside with the issue of names, iv always used the white walkers to describe those that have risen from the dead, like small paul, and the others as the ones we saw in the prologue of AGOT

[Black Crow]

Free Northman@ I'm not so sure about either the "alien" or the frozen under the ice business, although it depends how you define alien. I think that there are two important things coming out of this quotation. One is the direct reference to the Sidhe, ok its an icy version of the Sidhe but fundamentally the description matches in so many ways. Over the course of these threads we've looked at a variety of possible models, frequently from Norse mythology but this comparison together with the fact GRRM has them on his mind seems a pretty clear pointer.

The Sidhe are basically Faeries, taller, more elegant and more dangerous than the other Old Races, including the Children

So if we do look on them as Sidhe there are a number of interesting questions arising. First there's the hills. we've associated hollow hills with the Children, but those Children we've actually come across live in caves and tunnels under the earth rather than in hollow hills like the Sidhe. Are the barrowlands graves or are they Faerie/Sidhe/White Walker hollow hills, and is that why Ghost was so leery of the Fist of the First Men? Given the presumed connection between the Direwolves, Bloodraven and the Children, it shouldn't have bothered him, yet it did, badly. was that because it was a hollow hill not of the Children but of the Sidhe and was that why the Watch were were attacked?

The parallel with the Sidhe is also striking in the giving up of the babies, not as prey but as changelings which is consistent with Craster's people identifying those coming knocking as their own returning, but there's also another clue. Supposedly the Sidhe could only take unbaptised children. There's a wildling tradition of not naming a child until he's three(?) or more. Craster claims to be keeping the old ways. Was it once the case that children were more widely demanded in times gone by. Although substitution isn't part of the Craster set-up, presumably because he gives them up freely, could the origin of this custom be either a question of waiting long enough to be sure the baby was human and not a changeling, or, if the baby survived until it was three without being taken, its parents could name it and keep it. The latter appears to be the case here, especially where discussion of Gilly's baby is concerned.

All in all recognising the Others as an icy version of the Sidhe to my mind answers a lot of questions. They're arguably alien only insofar as they have nothing to do with the world of men, but they are just as much a part of Westeros as the Children and the Giants - and they take human babies, changelings, to raise as their own, those "terrible half human children", and there is a Stark connection both in Bran Stark the Night's King and the tale of Bael the Bard (the original) - which is a classic changeling story.

ETA spelling

[Black Crow]

OK we always knew he was sitting on something about the others. and elegant, dangerous could be anything... And I think judging on the prologue of aGoT that had been heresyed to death, they have a sense of honor and eh stateliness? but when the enemy falls it is a free - for - all.

GRRM did add the word "dangerous" :cool4:

But seriously, if you follow the link to the Sidhe they are frequently regarded as cruel

[Free Northman]

Free Northman@ I'm not so sure about either the "alien" or the frozen under the ice business, although it depends how you define alien. I think that there are two important things coming out of this quotation. One is the direct reference to the Sidhe, ok its an icy version of the Sidhe but fundamentally the description matches in so many ways. Over the course of these threads we've looked at a variety of possible models, frequently from Norse mythology but this comparison together with the fact GRRM has them on his mind seems a pretty clear pointer.

The Sidhe are basically Faeries, taller, more elegant and more dangerous than the other Old Races, including the Children

So if we do look on them as Sidhe there are a number of interesting questions arising. First there's the hills. we've associated hollow hills with the Children, but those Children we've actually come across live in caves and tunnels under the earth rather than in hollow hills like the Sidhe. Are the barrowlands graves or are they Faerie/Sidhe/White Walker hollow hills, and is that why Ghost was so leery of the Fist of the First Men? Given the presumed connection between the Direwolves, Bloodraven and the Children, it shouldn't have bothered him, yet it did, badly. was that because it was a hollow hill not of the Children but of the Sidhe and was that why the Watch were were attacked?

The parallel with the Sidhe is also striking in the giving up of the babies, not as prey but as changelings which is consistent with Craster's people identifying those coming knocking as their own returning, but there's also another clue. Supposedly the Sidhe could only take unbaptised children. There's a wildling tradition of not naming a child until he's three(?) or more. Craster claims to be keeping the old ways. Was it once the case that children were more widely demanded in times gone by. Although substitution isn't part of the Craster set-up, presumably because he gives them up freely, could the origin of this custom be either a question of waiting long enough to be sure the baby was human and not a changeling, or, if the baby survived until it was three without being taken, its parents could name it and keep it. The latter appears to be the case here, especially where discussion of Gilly's baby is concerned.

All in all recognising the Others as an icy version of the Sidhe to my mind answers a lot of questions. They're arguably alien only insofar as they have nothing to do with the world of men, but they are just as much a part of Westeros as the Children and the Giants - and they take human babies, changelings, to raise as their own, those "terrible half human children", and there is a Stark connection both in Bran Stark the Night's King and the tale of Bael the Bard (the original) - which is a classic changeling story.

ETA spelling

I'm open to this. When I say alien I mean non-human similar to the Children. Maybe a more ancient race that preceded the Children and are trying to return or someting.

I'm going to research the Sidhe a bit, as I'm not familiar with anything more than their names.

The changeling part is also interesting, but I think a key part where your overarching Heresy theory breaks down in light of the Sidhe comparison is that you still propose - as far as I remember - that Jon will be a hero of the North AND allied with the Others (now known as the equivalent of the Sidhe).

My point is that the Sidhe are evil, or rather, opposed to humanity, and there is no way that Jon can be allied to them AND be defending the realms of men.

If you theorize Jon as being the ''Ice Dragon'' and the King of the Sidhe, then you are effectively saying that Jon will be fighting against humanity. And this conflicts with the entire theme of Jon's charatcter, which is about sacrificing himself to save the lands of men.

[lokisnow]

GRRM did add the word "dangerous" :cool4:

But seriously, if you follow the link to the Sidhe they are frequently regarded as cruel

cruel, and Good Neighbors. :) Selection bias, ftw!

If the White Walkers are like the Sidhe--aka The Mound Dwellers--that adds in to the probability that the Fist is one of their places, not a place of the first men.

Regarding the post about the second moon falling onto the Arm of Dorne, shattering it, and thus releasing the Dragons, I cannot believe I never saw it before. I've thought that there was a second moon for a long time, but this is such a DUH! moment.

The Children caused the moon to fall on the arm of Dorne and shattered it. A tsunami resulted as well. And the plume of ash from such a massive body impacting the ground resulted in a Long Night that was basically equivalent to a Nuclear winter. Like the event that killed the dinosaurs it took a long time for the air to clear, and because there were no longer two moons, and gravitational pulls had altered, the seasons were now changed.

***

regarding the white mist. I think the WW are Ice made flesh, Quaithe tells us that Dragons are fire made flesh, and I think the WW are an inverse.

[Black Crow]

My point is that the Sidhe are evil, or rather, opposed to humanity, and there is no way that Jon can be allied to them AND be defending the realms of men.

If you theorize Jon as being the ''Ice Dragon'' and the King of the Sidhe, then you are effectively saying that Jon will be fighting against humanity. And this conflicts with the entire theme of Jon's charatcter, which is about sacrificing himself to save the lands of men.

I'll leave you to read up for yourself on the Sidhe, but again this fits. GRRM has expressed dislike of stark good and and evil. The Sidhe aren't evil, but as Faerie folk they care nothing for men, its indifference rather than active hatred.

As to Jon, unless his revival involves becoming a changeling and based on the little we know of changelings he may be too old, I don't see him becoming King of the Sidhe, but I still see him becoming King of Winter in alliance with the Sidhe against the threat from the Red Lot.

[Black Crow]

cruel, and Good Neighbors. :) Selection bias, ftw!

If the White Walkers are like the Sidhe--aka The Mound Dwellers--that adds in to the probability that the Fist is one of their places, not a place of the first men...

regarding the white mist. I think the WW are Ice made flesh, Quaithe tells us that Dragons are fire made flesh, and I think the WW are an inverse.

Well he have read it as a hill of the First Men, but it could be the fist which hit them...

As to the white mist, I agree. Another interesting point about the Sidhe is that they effectively live in a parallel world and perhaps they need to use Ice in order to walk in the world of Men, ie; they're flesh in their own hollow hills, but to slip out of Faerie-land/The Land of Always Winter, they ride the wind as an icy mist and assume near-human form on arrival.

[Free Northman]

I'll leave you to read up for yourself on the Sidhe, but again this fits. GRRM has expressed dislike of stark good and and evil. The Sidhe aren't evil, but as Faerie folk they care nothing for men, its indifference rather than active hatred.

As to Jon, unless his revival involves becoming a changeling and based on the little we know of changelings he may be too old, I don't see him becoming King of the Sidhe, but I still see him becoming King of Winter in alliance with the Sidhe against the threat from the Red Lot.

Ah, I see.

In my mind there are two distinct groups of ''Ancient Folk''. The Others and the Children. And they may be distantly related. But they are opposed to one another, in my view.

And in my worldview, Jon and Bran are quite clearly on the side of the Children, opposed to the side of the Others.

[Free Northman]

cruel, and Good Neighbors. :) Selection bias, ftw!

If the White Walkers are like the Sidhe--aka The Mound Dwellers--that adds in to the probability that the Fist is one of their places, not a place of the first men.

Regarding the post about the second moon falling onto the Arm of Dorne, shattering it, and thus releasing the Dragons, I cannot believe I never saw it before. I've thought that there was a second moon for a long time, but this is such a DUH! moment.

The Children caused the moon to fall on the arm of Dorne and shattered it. A tsunami resulted as well. And the plume of ash from such a massive body impacting the ground resulted in a Long Night that was basically equivalent to a Nuclear winter. Like the event that killed the dinosaurs it took a long time for the air to clear, and because there were no longer two moons, and gravitational pulls had altered, the seasons were now changed.

***

regarding the white mist. I think the WW are Ice made flesh, Quaithe tells us that Dragons are fire made flesh, and I think the WW are an inverse.

cruel, and Good Neighbors. :) Selection bias, ftw!

If the White Walkers are like the Sidhe--aka The Mound Dwellers--that adds in to the probability that the Fist is one of their places, not a place of the first men.

Regarding the post about the second moon falling onto the Arm of Dorne, shattering it, and thus releasing the Dragons, I cannot believe I never saw it before. I've thought that there was a second moon for a long time, but this is such a DUH! moment.

The Children caused the moon to fall on the arm of Dorne and shattered it. A tsunami resulted as well. And the plume of ash from such a massive body impacting the ground resulted in a Long Night that was basically equivalent to a Nuclear winter. Like the event that killed the dinosaurs it took a long time for the air to clear, and because there were no longer two moons, and gravitational pulls had altered, the seasons were now changed.

***

regarding the white mist. I think the WW are Ice made flesh, Quaithe tells us that Dragons are fire made flesh, and I think the WW are an inverse.

cruel, and Good Neighbors. :) Selection bias, ftw!

If the White Walkers are like the Sidhe--aka The Mound Dwellers--that adds in to the probability that the Fist is one of their places, not a place of the first men.

Regarding the post about the second moon falling onto the Arm of Dorne, shattering it, and thus releasing the Dragons, I cannot believe I never saw it before. I've thought that there was a second moon for a long time, but this is such a DUH! moment.

The Children caused the moon to fall on the arm of Dorne and shattered it. A tsunami resulted as well. And the plume of ash from such a massive body impacting the ground resulted in a Long Night that was basically equivalent to a Nuclear winter. Like the event that killed the dinosaurs it took a long time for the air to clear, and because there were no longer two moons, and gravitational pulls had altered, the seasons were now changed.

***

regarding the white mist. I think the WW are Ice made flesh, Quaithe tells us that Dragons are fire made flesh, and I think the WW are an inverse.

Martin has stated that the lopsided seasons have a magical, not a scientific explanation. So the gravity anomalies and ash plume ideas sadly have to be discarded, much as I would have favoured them.

In my view we have a situation where the Children defeated the Others in ages past, long before humans arrived in the world. Then when the First Men threatened Westeros, the Children were forced to reach beyond the limits of their powers to bring down the Hammer of the Waters - probably related to the second moon that shattered.

This, I believe, caused a MAGICAL imbalance or weakening of the Children, thus opening the door for the long banished Sidhe/Others to gradually start breaking free of their prison/parralel realm over the course of 4000 years, until they were able to unleash the full power of the Long Night upon the world, 8000 years ago.

Either that, or the Children were forced to create the Long Night in order to destroy the dragons which their Hammer of the Waters catastrophe had unleashed into the world.

Something along those lines. We'll know more in the next book.

[Lummel]

...They are alien and its either them or us.

I agree with you up to a certain point. Iv always seen the Others as the ultimate evil, whereas the fight for the iron throne is like a sideshow. I do agree its us or them though...

...All in all recognising the Others as an icy version of the Sidhe to my mind answers a lot of questions. They're arguably alien only insofar as they have nothing to do with the world of men, but they are just as much a part of Westeros as the Children and the Giants - and they take human babies, changelings, to raise as their own, those "terrible half human children", and there is a Stark connection both in Bran Stark the Night's King and the tale of Bael the Bard (the original) - which is a classic changeling story.

The thing about the folklore tradition of the Sidhe is that they are alien and they are other but there is co-existence. In fact there are only problems when humans fail to show proper respect for the fair folk.