189 replies to this topic

[gogorath]

SFA-OK, on 28 April 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

gograth, I think you're putting too much stock into what "professional TV critics" think of the show. Most TV is pretty bad, I think you'd agree there. So what are these critics comparing the show to? Mostly bad shows. GoT isn't a bad show and it has pretty good production values, the content is an epic story, etc. Most critics were never going to give the show a negative review unless HBO really dropped the ball on it and did something horrible with it.

And I'm not sure that your hypothesis is correct, could be, but definitely isn't the case with me. I've been accused of being a "book purist" on here but it simply isn't true and I think some people use that label on here when they don't like to hear criticisms of the show. I've only read the books once and don't remember some of the details. It seems that you are implying the writing on the GoT TV writing is on par or better than the Sopranos which I couldn't disagree more with.

It simply comes down to this for me - The show, thus far, just isn't that entertaining or interesting, regardless of source material or comparisons to it. And the reasons for it - The writing, the writing, the writing, the pacing and direction (constant ADD jumping from scene to scene, etc.). Some of the casting and acting have been great though. But I stated last year that if I HADN'T read the books I would've stopped watching it already, the show is that middle of the road and mediocre in a lot of ways. But again, some fans are loving it which is cool.

I'm not sure I'm communicating my argument very well, or maybe we're just never going to see eye to eye.  I just simply haven't seen a single person who hasn't read the books who didn't like the writing, etc.  I have yet to see a suggestion of better writing of an adaptation.

So I think my hypothesis has a lot of evidence behind it.  You don't have to be a book purist to downgrade something because of known comparison.  But I don't think we're ever going to agree on it.  I would like to see you provide an adaptation you think that has been done significantly better -- I mean, if GOT is so poorly done, there's got to be better ones, right?

As for the Sopranos, I enjoyed it, but let's not make it more than it was.  It was nice, highly repetitive, and frankly the "psychological family drama" aspect of it referenced by another poster was never very interesting to me.  Frankly, both kids were shallow and the show did seven seasons of junxtaposing Tony's soft side with brutal violence.  Over and over.

If you don't see anything deeper in GOT, I'd suggest you look deeper.  Maybe it's not your angle, but the thematics on power, abuse of power, the necessities of ruling are all things that interest me.  There's direct analogues to modern politics -- there's no doubt that Martin's view that Ned Stark could never survive comes from his views of modern politics and the simple fact that someone playing at that level of power never has their hands clean.  (And when we get to book five... Dany as an occupying force -- wonder what could have influenced how that turned out?)

Anyway, there's 9,000 movies and tv shows a year that cover dysfunctional, unhappy, suburban families.  Sopranos was a great show, but it had its share of poor pacing (there were whole seasons that might have been unnecessary).  I don't even know if I'd say Game of Thrones is better (and The Wire is still the best show I've ever seen), but I don't think these are nearly as separate as people would make them out.

GOT is dealing with a lot of things that the Sopranos never had to.  Two of the biggest are scale -- Sopranos is nowhere near the scale of GOT.  The other is a necessary comparison to source material.  The Wire had the scale of GOT in terms of characters, but not plotlines.  But even so, they didn't have to deal with concerns about people complaining that a character was marginalized for time or simplicity.  

D&D have a much harder job than the rest of these writers did in a lot of ways.

I don't really have any problem with people listing three to five of the best shows of all time as superior in writing, etc.  I guess I haven't really seen any legitimate criticism to say the work is significantly worse, as you seem to be placing it.  But maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

[lyvyathan]

I was more than a little disappointed by the actors who was playing Lancet and the Mountain who rides - and Mel's birthing of the Shadow Monster was to mho rather b-grade - even the actor who played Davos - his reaction to it seemed off.

But I really liked the actor who played Tywin- he carried the day in my book.

The physical chastisement of Sansa could also have been done better- nothing wrong with (the actress playing Sansa). But it really should have been more vicious.

And did we really have to have a scene with Joff and the sex-workers?? This tit-n-ass subplots are taking up too much valuable screentime.

[Dunnii]

I don't post often, but I was so disappointed and dismayed at that Joffrey scene that I wanted to turn off the show. this show got me interested in the books and I've read them all and love this story. But that scene was ridiculous, imo.

I want to believe they added it for the story, but if felt more like shock TV and that isn't what I bought HBO for. I actually only have HBO for this show and I wanted to cancel.

I've been reading and I know a lot of you view this scene differently, but I'm not sure anything to come later will be able to erase the sick feeling I had watching it. Didn't the audience already hate Joffrey? I cannot see how it was necessary.

[James Arryn]

gogorath, on 28 April 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

As for the Sopranos, I enjoyed it, but let's not make it more than it was.  It was nice, highly repetitive, and frankly the "psychological family drama" aspect of it referenced by another poster was never very interesting to me.  Frankly, both kids were shallow and the show did seven seasons of junxtaposing Tony's soft side with brutal violence.  Over and over.

Agreed.

Originally got hooked, but it got stale pretty quick. As you say, became extremely repetitive.

I'd put it well behind Deadwood and Rome, for example.

(And GOT reminds me more of these 2 than Sopranos anyways.)

Edited by James Arryn, 29 April 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[SFA-OK]

gogorath, I think we just have different taste, you're a big Malick fan apparently, I am not, I think the Sopranos is easily one of the greatest shows on TV, you apparently do not.

In a way, I think you are misunderstanding me. I never said the GoT show was bad or "done so poorly", just that it's average or mediocre in a lot of ways. And that kind of show is not what I was hoping for when I heard HBO was doing the adaptation. I'm not sure how it's relevant if there have or haven't been other better adaptions on TV or the movies.

I never said I didn't think the Martin books weren't deep on some levels, I've specifically been talking about the show.

As far as legitimate criticism goes I guess I could go through an episode and specifically critique what I didn't like in the direction, pacing and writing but who would care? It's just my opinion.

[Voshed]

Jakester, on 22 April 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Far too much gore and violence.

Also that bit with Joffrey and the prostitutes, was that really necessary? It wasn't even in the books from what i remember. Most people already hate or dislike him.

No can't remember that in book either, however it did serve to highten viewers, who haven't read the books, just what a psycho he is. Having read all the books, I think you'll find there's A LOT more gore and violence to come

[Voshed]

James Arryn, on 29 April 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Agreed.

Originally got hooked, but it got stale pretty quick. As you say, became extremely repetitive.

I'd put it well behind Deadwood and Rome, for example.

(And GOT reminds me more of these 2 than Sopranos anyways.)

Got to agree. I think the initial shock value of The Sopranos soon wained while Deadwood, and Rome always seemed to be moving forward with the story while keeping viewers on the edge of their seats.

[tripleseq]

Tyrion: "We've had vicious kings, and we've had idiot kings...but I don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot for a king!"
Joffrey: "You, you can't!"
Tyrion: "I can, I am!"
Joffrey: "They attacked ME!"
Tyrion: "They threw a cowpie at you! So you decide to kill them all?! They're starving, you fool! All because of a war you started!"
Joffrey: "You're talking to a king!"
[Tyrion slaps Joffrey across the face, sending him sprawling]
Tyrion: "And now I've struck a king! Did my hand fall from my wrist?!"

Vanessa Taylor Rocks.

Edited by tripleseq, 19 May 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[rmholt]

Improved on rewatching-and I could buzz through the ick.

[RhymesWithFreak]

Gave it an 8.

Pros:

Tyrion saving Sansa in the Red Keep
Tywin turning up in Harrenhal
Joffrey being sociopathic with the whores
Harrenhal's look
Stannis and Renly parley
Shadow birth scene
Roose Bolton being introduced
Tyrion and Lancel

Cons:

Daenerys outside Quarth
Robb and Talisa