38 replies to this topic

[MizasterJ]

For those that obviously have read A Clash of Kings.

What if Renly's army had attacked Kings Landing 1st? Would they have been successful against the kingsguard ? would they have seized the throne? and then where would that leave Stannis? Would the war have been settled or would it have ignited further?

How would a Storm of Swords be different?

Edited by MizasterJ, 22 April 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Fire Eater]

The remaining KG in KL were a joke for the most part, so they would have been successful against the KG. If Renly attacked KL there is a good chance he may have won even with the forces of Tywin Lannister added. Stannis wouldn't take the news well, but he would continue fighting. Renly would have sent a force to meet him as well as someone to talk with him.

That would leave the Starks, Greyjoys and Renly with the Lannisters probably having nowhere else to go.

[I'll pay the iron price]

I think Catelyn Stark hit the nail on the head when she acussed Renlys bannermen of "playing at war" whilst her son fought a real war.
Renly was all talk and not much action

[Leviathan I]

I, on 05 May 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I think Catelyn Stark hit the nail on the head when she acussed Renlys bannermen of "playing at war" whilst her son fought a real war.
Renly was all talk and not much action

Yeah, he just liked the idea of being called "king"

[Talleyrand]

I, on 05 May 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I think Catelyn Stark hit the nail on the head when she acussed Renlys bannermen of "playing at war" whilst her son fought a real war.
Renly was all talk and not much action

Except that "not much action" was better tactics than we've seen from Stannis so far.
By not doing anything Renly gets to lose no-one while Tywin, his biggest threat, loses mean. Robb also loses men, putting Renly in a better position if they have to come to negotiations later. Every day Renly sits down south is another day KL goes without supplies from the Reach, which it desperately needs. This is shown to turn the populace against the Lannisters and in favour of Renly. Even Tyrion comments that its a solid tactic.
Compared to this Stannis, who has five thousand men, decides to attack Storm's End, a supposedly impregnable fortress, when there are close to 100,000 men camped just a few days march away.
And if we take Stannis at his word that he didn't know about the Shadowbaby being sent after Renly then that means that he genuinely thought he could take on Renly's 20,000 in the morning.

[I'll pay the iron price]

Lothbrok, on 05 May 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

And if we take Stannis at his word that he didn't know about the Shadowbaby being sent after Renly then that means that he genuinely thought he could take on Renly's 20,000 in the morning.

But Stannis personally ordered Davos to "use his old smugglers tricks" to take the Red Lady ashore.
He must have known what she was gonna do?
Murdering Renly was pure genius as it elimanated one of his enemies and meant most of Renlys bannermen then flocked to Stannis as there wasnt really much other option for them!
Take out a rival and get thousands of men to join your ranks! - Go Stannis

[Talleyrand]

I, on 05 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

But Stannis personally ordered Davos to "use his old smugglers tricks" to take the Red Lady ashore.
He must have known what she was gonna do?
Murdering Renly was pure genius as it elimanated one of his enemies and meant most of Renlys bannermen then flocked to Stannis as there wasnt really much other option for them!
Take out a rival and get thousands of men to join your ranks! - Go Stannis

You're confusing the books with the TV series. Stannis and his army were already ashore and his men camped opposite Renly's. Stannis claims he had no hand in his brother's death and only asks Davos to transport Mel under Storm's End to deal with Ser Cortney Penrose, a man infinitely more badass than Stannis

[Batman]

If he had marched on Kings Landing he would have been able to take the city but he still would not have been able to win the war. The opposing leaders are too smart for Renley to win no matter how large his army is. Renley could not beat Tywin Lannister or Stannis Baratheon.

[Talleyrand]

Batman, on 05 May 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

If he had marched on Kings Landing he would have been able to take the city but he still would not have been able to win the war. The opposing leaders are too smart for Renley to win no matter how large his army is. Renley could not beat Tywin Lannister or Stannis Baratheon.

Numbers do matter in war.
How exactly is Stannis' 5000 going to take on Renly's 80,000, maybe even more with other houses joining him now that he sits on the Iron Throne? Tywin and Stannis have won battles in the past but they aren't military geniuses. Tywin was defeated by Edmure and he has at best 20,000.
Renly also has Randal Tarly as his commander. Without shadowbabies and bar any freak accidents Renly takes KL and becomes King in the end.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Talleyrand, on 05 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Renly also has Randal Tarly as his commander. Without shadowbabies and bar any freak accidents Renly takes KL and becomes King in the end.

If it was that simply, why didn't Aerys and Rhaegar did it? They had the biggest army, and were already in the Iron Throne, and had the full support of the Tyrells.

Even without shadowbabies, Renly wouldn't have what it takes to win, and specially, to hold the throne. Either through warfare or by schemes by Varys/LF, he would lose in the end.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Winterfell is Burning, on 05 May 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

If it was that simply, why didn't Aerys and Rhaegar did it? They had the biggest army, and were already in the Iron Throne, and had the full support of the Tyrells.

Even without shadowbabies, Renly wouldn't have what it takes to win, and specially, to hold the throne. Either through warfare or by schemes by Varys/LF, he would lose in the end.

Because the Vale, North, Stormlands and Riverlands fought Rhaegar on the Trident. Renly would have taken Kings Landing and defeated the weakened Lannisters and Starks if he had to, he'd probably try and make peace.

[Talleyrand]

Winterfell is Burning, on 05 May 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

If it was that simply, why didn't Aerys and Rhaegar did it? They had the biggest army, and were already in the Iron Throne, and had the full support of the Tyrells.

Even without shadowbabies, Renly wouldn't have what it takes to win, and specially, to hold the throne. Either through warfare or by schemes by Varys/LF, he would lose in the end.

There's a difference in the numbers. At the trident Rhaegar had a lead of about 5,000 men. Renly's host at Bitterbridge outnumbers Stannis by 75,000. And he's got at least 60,000 on Tywin.
With Aerys the Tyrells sat about at Storm's End not doing much. However this time they are being much more proactive, no doubt due to Marg being the queen and Loras' insistence.
Think of how quickly Robb's Riverlands Kingdom fell apart after his death. How long are the Crownland and Westerland Nobles going to want to continue the fight with King's Landing gone? If Renly took King's Landing and does away with Joff and the rest its only a matter of time until all but the most resolute of Tywin's bannermen bend the knee.

Edited by Talleyrand, 05 May 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[LuisDantas]

MizasterJ, on 22 April 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

For those that obviously have read A Clash of Kings.

What if Renly's army had attacked Kings Landing 1st? Would they have been successful against the kingsguard ?

Most likely yes, and the Gold Cloaks would hardly prove a significant challenge either.  But the cost would be higher than by the strategy of blockade that he chose instead.

Quote

would they have seized the throne?

Oh yes.

Quote

and then where would that leave Stannis? Would the war have been settled or would it have ignited further?

I don't see why Stannis would act any differently.  He would still betray Renly and steal his bannermen.  Only it would happen in King's Landing instead of Storm's End.

Unless, of course, Renly decided to kill him first.

Quote

How would a Storm of Swords be different?

It would have a sweeter flavor of justice

[LuisDantas]

I, on 05 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

But Stannis personally ordered Davos to "use his old smugglers tricks" to take the Red Lady ashore.
He must have known what she was gonna do?
Murdering Renly was pure genius as it elimanated one of his enemies and meant most of Renlys bannermen then flocked to Stannis as there wasnt really much other option for them!
Take out a rival and get thousands of men to join your ranks! - Go Stannis

You realize that you are basically endorsing terrorism?

[I'll pay the iron price]

LuisDantas, on 05 May 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

You realize that you are basically endorsing terrorism?

How is it terrorism?
There was a war on and Renners was a perfectly legit target.
If you want to be like that, given that Cersei's children were Jamies and not Robert Baratheons, then Stannis was the Legit candidate for King.
Technically, Renly was a rebel!

[LuisDantas]

That makes no difference.  Renly wasn't at a battlefield, nor was the accorded hour respected.

[mor2]

I dont know it seems like a good old assassination and has nothing todo with civilians :/

Edited by mor2, 06 May 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[I'll pay the iron price]

LuisDantas, on 06 May 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

That makes no difference.  Renly wasn't at a battlefield, nor was the accorded hour respected.

Reinhard Heydrich wasnt at a battlefield either when the Czech resistance killed him but not to many people gave a damn!

[Fae Boleyn]

It's a political assassination, not terrorism.

Renly could have taken King's Landing with the forces he had... although hopefully he primarily would have invaded by land. Whoever came by water would have wildfire to deal with and that would be bad.

[LuisDantas]

It is a political assassination aggravated by the betrayal of previously accorded terms of engagement.

It is, therefore, terrorism.