38 replies to this topic

[Fae Boleyn]

It would be terrorism if Renly was already the confirmed and winning King and the goal in killing him was to destabilize the government. Killing him was to eliminate a rival and collect his bannermen. Not the same thing.

[I'll pay the iron price]

Well in a war of multiple Kings, I think you need to be a bit devious and underhand if you want to Triumph

[Batman]

Talleyrand, on 05 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Numbers do matter in war.
How exactly is Stannis' 5000 going to take on Renly's 80,000, maybe even more with other houses joining him now that he sits on the Iron Throne? Tywin and Stannis have won battles in the past but they aren't military geniuses. Tywin was defeated by Edmure and he has at best 20,000.
Renly also has Randal Tarly as his commander. Without shadowbabies and bar any freak accidents Renly takes KL and becomes King in the end.

Wars are won with whatever weapons the commanders have at their disposal, Melisandre was the weapon that defeated Renley. The question wasnt "what if Renley didnt die" it was what if Renley had marched on Kings Landing more quickly. Melisandre still would have killed him and the Stormlands would end up supporting Stannis.

[LuisDantas]

Fae Boleyn, on 06 May 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

It would be terrorism if Renly was already the confirmed and winning King and the goal in killing him was to destabilize the government. Killing him was to eliminate a rival and collect his bannermen. Not the same thing.

Irrelevant.  Renly was the confirmed King far as his troops went.  And Stannis admitted goal was precisely to destabilize and steal his troops.

It is only not terrorism if we take as a premise that Stannis is to be supported regardless of his actual actions.  And if we conveniently forget that he agreed on a time for the combat to begin, then reneged on that promise.

Edited by LuisDantas, 06 May 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[I'll pay the iron price]

LuisDantas, on 06 May 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Irrelevant.  Renly was the confirmed King far as his troops went.  And Stannis admitted goal was precisely to destabilize and steal his troops.

It is only not terrorism if we take as a premise that Stannis is to be supported regardless of his actual actions.

And Stannis was the confirmed King as far as his people went!
As someone mentioned, Melisandre proved to be his super weapon.
Stannis is a way better King then Renly ever would be

[Fae Boleyn]

Killing a political rival is not terrorism, not in itself. It's in the word terrorism  - the idea is to create terror. Hence why terrorism involves either killing civilians or destabilizing a government. Assassinating a rival who you are officially at war with is underhanded, but not terrorism. Making his army fall apart/mostly join you is just the same; underhanded but a smart war tactic.

Renly was confirmed by his troops, but he hadn't won yet. Which means he was not the confirmed, ruling King, he was a claimant to the throne with strong backing.

Honestly, Stannis and Renly working together would have been a better bet than either of them on their own, because they have what the other lacks. Stannis has the best claim, but Renly has the ability to win people to a cause. Stannis is a soldier, with a strict sense of duty and justice, but he's politically hopeless. Renly, on the other hand, is a politician, knowing how to compromise and conciliate - which Stannis can't bring himself to do. And while you can admire his black and white viewpoint, it's not really good for a king to look at things like that. I really think that if they'd worked together, they'd have won. Well, beaten the Lannisters anyway; what would have happened with the Starks and eventually the Targaryens is up in the air still.

Batman, on 06 May 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

Wars are won with whatever weapons the commanders have at their disposal, Melisandre was the weapon that defeated Renley. The question wasnt "what if Renley didnt die" it was what if Renley had marched on Kings Landing more quickly. Melisandre still would have killed him and the Stormlands would end up supporting Stannis.

Only if they could get her close enough. Note that she didn't sic Shadow Baby 1 on Renly until the two forces were pretty much side by side, and that Davos had to smuggle her into Storm's End to get the castellan with Shadow Baby 2. (Cortney Penrose? I always forget his name.) I could be wrong, but I've come to think that, because of that pattern, Melisandre's shadow babies don't work unless she's within a certain distance.

[Batman]

Fae Boleyn, on 06 May 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Only if they could get her close enough. Note that she didn't sic Shadow Baby 1 on Renly until the two forces were pretty much side by side, and that Davos had to smuggle her into Storm's End to get the castellan with Shadow Baby 2. (Cortney Penrose? I always forget his name.) I could be wrong, but I've come to think that, because of that pattern, Melisandre's shadow babies don't work unless she's within a certain distance.

Magic cant penetrate the walls of Storms End, something about spells being woven into the walls themselves. Also Stannis had hoped to gain the Tyrell support, name Renley his heir and march on Kings Landing together. When Renley refused, well you know.

[Fae Boleyn]

Good point. I'm still inclined to think there's a distance issue involved (if only logistically; the further it has to go, the more likely it'll be seen, or whatever specifically powers it will run down before it hits its target), but all of that is true as well.

[mutiny! he cried]

LuisDantas, on 06 May 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

It is a political assassination aggravated by the betrayal of previously accorded terms of engagement.

It is, therefore, terrorism.

for what it's worth the department of defense defines it as

The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

[mutiny! he cried]

Fae Boleyn, on 06 May 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Good point. I'm still inclined to think there's a distance issue involved (if only logistically; the further it has to go, the more likely it'll be seen, or whatever specifically powers it will run down before it hits its target), but all of that is true as well.

i thought that, too. remember she didn't march on KL with them and Stannis ended up losing.

[LuisDantas]

mutiny! he cried, on 11 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

for what it's worth the department of defense defines it as

The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

Thanks.  That is exactly what Stannis did to Renly.  Except that besides unlawful, it was also treacherous and dishonorable.

[TomWillcox]

LuisDantas, on 11 May 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Thanks.  That is exactly what Stannis did to Renly.  Except that besides unlawful, it was also treacherous and dishonorable.

Surely, by naming himself King when he had no rightful claim thereby betraying his brother and what he thought were his nephews and niece, Renly was being both treacherous and dishonourable? Furthermore, being a blatant traitor surely by law means incurring the death penalty?

[MizasterJ]

I actually think Renly would have fared worse than Stannis.

[Danyl Stark]

I, on 06 May 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Reinhard Heydrich wasnt at a battlefield either when the Czech resistance killed him but not to many people gave a damn!

• Heydrich was a war criminal, one of the top guys behing the holocaust, you can't really compare his assassination to Renly's
  
• And Renly was murdered in a society where kinslaying is thought of as an abomination

[Stark4life]

I think Renly would have succeeded in taking KL. He had the support of the Tyrells and an army that towered over everyone else.  If the people of KL accepted Renly as their king then that's it. Power resides where men believe it resides. And I believe that he and Robb would have somehow joined up to finish off the Lannisters. His downfall of course would be Mel, making Stannis king. I think the whole shadowbaby thing is so unfair. But I guess if Robb has his direwolf that rips men apart, then Stannis can have his red witch.

EDIT: I'm not saying that I think Renly has any legitimate claim to the throne. I don't. I just think he had every chance to be king based his army and the Tyrells.

Edited by Stark4life, 01 July 2012 - 10:47 PM.

[The Snowman]

Stark4life, on 01 July 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

I think Renly would have succeeded in taking KL. He had the support of the Tyrells and an army that towered over everyone else.  If the people of KL accepted Renly as their king then that's it. Power resides where men believe it resides. And I believe that he and Robb would have somehow joined up to finish off the Lannisters. His downfall of course would be Mel, making Stannis king. I think the whole shadowbaby thing is so unfair. But I guess if Robb has his direwolf that rips men apart, then Stannis can have his red witch.

EDIT: I'm not saying that I think Renly has any legitimate claim to the throne. I don't. I just think he had every chance to be king based his army and the Tyrells.

If all that occurred than Stannis would have told Robb to surrender his kingship and the North would not have been happy with that and then Robb would've been killed by a shadow baby as well.   Then Im sure everyone would have been wtf is going on?

[GentlemanBastard]

Fire Eater, on 22 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

The remaining KG in KL were a joke for the most part, so they would have been successful against the KG. If Renly attacked KL there is a good chance he may have won even with the forces of Tywin Lannister added. Stannis wouldn't take the news well, but he would continue fighting. Renly would have sent a force to meet him as well as someone to talk with him.

That would leave the Starks, Greyjoys and Renly with the Lannisters probably having nowhere else to go.

Yeah the only KG members worth a damn were Balon Swann The Hound and Mandon Moore. Jaime was locked up the Kettleblacks are all Littlefinger's men Blount was fat Meryn Trant probably got shit on by Syrio and Arys Oakhart was in Dorne.

[Bedanzilla]

I, on 06 May 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Well in a war of multiple Kings, I think you need to be a bit devious and underhand if you want to Triumph

Absolutely, when you play the game of thrones, you either win, or you die.... sorry had to say it

[lyvyathan]

I, on 05 May 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I think Catelyn Stark hit the nail on the head when she acussed Renlys bannermen of "playing at war" whilst her son fought a real war.
Renly was all talk and not much action

Coming from Catelyn Stark, I'd take that with a hefty dose of sea salts thanks. Her stupid decision to kidnap Tyrion helped to precipate the conflict.