135 replies to this topic

[Reposado]

stonygirl, on 25 April 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

I think she is Jeyne Westerling, I just figured they changed her name, as not to confuse people later with Jeyne Poole if and when she shows up.

hmm they probably wont bother with jeyne poole. they will keep ot simple and just have arya do that part

[ManyFacedOne]

Arya's already getting the coin so she's going to Braavos. No time to marry Ramsay then.

[Davos55]

BaelorBreakspear, on 25 April 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

hmm they probably wont bother with jeyne poole. they will keep ot simple and just have arya do that part

That would be terrible.

[GSP]

If Talisa is Jeyne I don't like this alteration to the story. One of the strength of Martin's writings imho is his ability to drop bombs on us. One of those bombs was Robb showing up married to a non Frey. That will be ruined if they go about showing a bunch of romantic buildup.

[Arrogant Bastard]

GSP, on 25 April 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

If Talisa is Jeyne I don't like this alteration to the story. One of the strength of Martin's writings imho is his ability to drop bombs on us. One of those bombs was Robb showing up married to a non Frey. That will be ruined if they go about showing a bunch of romantic buildup.

Agree. And if that first meeting between Robb and Talisa is indicative of how the rest of the scenes will play, it seems like a big, big waste of time. As noted in the Westeros review of the episode, that whole conversation felt cliched and familiar. I really have no interest in Robb's romance with Jeyne/Talisa, and I feel like it's being thrown in there just to have a romance. Maybe the scenes will get better, I don't know, but as of right now I'll just say I don't have a whole of confidence that the upcoming Robb romance scnes will be worth the time.

This is part of my gripes with teh show as a whole. It really feels like they're spending way too much time expanding on sequences that were either implied in the book--Tyrion's brief thought of bringing Joffrye to a brothel turning into a five minute scene of Joffrey terrorizing Ros--or showing "offscreen" sequences, such as this new romance with Robb. I feel like this is a problem because these new scenes are coming at the expense of big moments from the show. For instance, the last epiosde had several new scenes--Joffrey with Ros, Littlefinger in every scene he was in--that took time away from having great scenes in the book. The Renly Stannis meeting was incredibly rushed on the show and not built up at all. They never even had a scene of Renly finding out that Stannis was coming; Stannis hadn't been on teh show for two episodes, then suddenly he's already meeting Renly with little to no explanation.

I feel like the writers just made a list of events and scnes from the books that needed to be in, and then added their own scenes, ignoring that a lot of those book scenes need setup in order to be effective. I'm still enjoying the show, but it really feels rushed, much more so than last season, and with only ten episodes they should have planned this out better and probably cut a lot of this new invented scenes that don't really add much plot or character wise. Joffrey and Littlefinger's scenes with Ros, for example, were pretty good, but did nothing. The audience already knows both are scumbags, so what was the point.

[David Selig]

Quote

This is part of my gripes with teh show as a whole. It really feels like they're spending way too much time expanding on sequences that were either implied in the book--Tyrion's brief thought of bringing Joffrye to a brothel turning into a five minute scene of Joffrey terrorizing Ros--or showing "offscreen" sequences, such as this new romance with Robb.

I think this is (mostly) a good thing. The show has the opportunity to show us events we couldn't see in the books due to the PoV structure, and I like that they are using it. Sure, sometimes those added scenes are weak, but just following the books as much as possible and not adding anything would be boring for me.

Quote

If Talisa is Jeyne I don't like this alteration to the story. One of the strength of Martin's writings imho is his ability to drop bombs on us. One of those bombs was Robb showing up married to a non Frey. That will be ruined if they go about showing a bunch of romantic buildup.

I disagree. Why miss the opportunity for developing a pretty important character like Robb just for a minor surprise? Besides, it wasn't even much of a surprise in the books when he showed up married to non-Freys, it was strongly hinted in the last Arya chapter of ACOK, with Elmar Freys telling Arya “My princess.We’ve been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I’ll need to marry someone else".

[Arrogant Bastard]

David Selig, on 26 April 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

I think this is (mostly) a good thing. The show has the opportunity to show us events we couldn't see in the books due to the PoV structure, and I like that they are using it. Sure, sometimes those added scenes are weak, but just following the books as much as possible and not adding anything would be boring for me.


I disagree. Why miss the opportunity for developing a pretty important character like Robb just for a minor surprise? Besides, it wasn't even much of a surprise in the books when he showed up married to non-Freys, it was strongly hinted in the last Arya chapter of ACOK, with Elmar Freys telling Arya “My princess.We’ve been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I’ll need to marry someone else".

I just generally think the strongest scenes on the show are the ones that stick closest to the book, and while most of the new scenes are good, in my opinion they'd be better served allowing for more setup and character building scenes from the book. This season, for the most part, it feels like they're just trying to hit the major scenes from the book, sometimes without providing the needed setup so these scenes have more impact.

I still thought it was a big surprise when Robb showed up married to Jeyne in the book. Honestly, I didn't remember that Elmar Frey conversation with Arya at all by the time I hit A Storm of Swords, and really only noticed it on a re-read.

[Abicion]

Talisa is Jeyne.

By introducing "Talisa," the TV writers are showing you very early on how Jeyne uses aliases and elaborate fake backstories to move invisibly betweem battle lines.

Spoiler

It all leads into the fact the girl Jaime meets in A Feast for Crows (you know, the one with the strangely different-sized hips) is a body double and the real Jeyne / "Talisa" is hiding somewhere with Robb's baby.

Some of you are acting like this is a complete betrayal of the story when it's actually setting up one of the series's biggest upcoming plot twists more gloriously than GRRM himself.

[Isabella Stark]

A Time for Wolves, on 25 April 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

This whole commoner-sassing-the-nobleman thing is a problem mainly because it's a well known staple of cheap romance novels, to the point where P.G. Wodehouse once parodied it hilariously in one of his Jeeves stories. And like others have pointed out, it would not happen in Westeros. Very few nobles ever care about the peasants. Arya is an exception that way - if you remember, even Jon Snow was an elitist douchebag when he first went to the Wall. Tyrion is only nice to commoners insofar as he has use for them (which still makes him better than 99% of his peers), and I think Ned's advice to Robb is being misconstrued.

In fact, it's a cliche that GRRM was specifically critical of and said he wanted to avoid.

"And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

Read more: http://entertainment.../#ixzz1tBMEgRpo

The Robb & "Talisa" scene isn't quite that wrong- "Talisa" is probably minor nobility- but it's still a departure from the reality of class and gender relations that GRRM captures in the books.
I wasn't crazy about the scene, but I get that they wanted to have more Richard Madden, and Robb's love life seemed like a logical things to feature.  And I get that tv-Robb, being older than book-Robb, wouldn't have the same love story.

[RSasoiaf]

And the whole class structure goes even one step further with this Talisa scene because you dont have only class structure wrong there, you have comon sense really really wrong there!!!!

Now imagine yourselves being tending for injured on a battlefield and you sudenly get to know a general and a king who just butchered the enemy army with a big and scary "family size-killing wolf"......I do not know but if i had any complaints to do, i would really not try my luck with such a character. You know....unless Talisa just had the chance to catch on the late social column and knows Robb is this really nice guy  who will give a chance for everyone to speak freelly.....unless she knows that, she is pretty much playing with her own skin by just messing with this guy who can kill her in a second and no one will care about it....hell....the guy who stands by him might even think death was a nice and boring way out for you compared to what he is planning if he ever gets his hands on you.

You see.....it´s not only class structure....it´s really foolish!!!!

And besides, she doesnt really have a point there. Robb is not really the bad guy so far in this war is he? I was waitting for him to answer something like "do you know someone who goes by the name of Gregor Clegane??? Nice fellow you got there!....or that Lord of the Lannisters that decided to Burn and raze the Riverlands because....because they did nothing against him in the first place....yeaaaahh another nice fellow"
I was waitting for Robb to say: "YOU KNOW NOTHING Florence Bonesaw from Volantis, YOU KNOW NOTHING"

[Arrogant Bastard]

Abicion, on 26 April 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

Talisa is Jeyne.

By introducing "Talisa," the TV writers are showing you very early on how Jeyne uses aliases and elaborate fake backstories to move invisibly betweem battle lines.

Spoiler

It all leads into the fact the girl Jaime meets in A Feast for Crows (you know, the one with the strangely different-sized hips) is a body double and the real Jeyne / "Talisa" is hiding somewhere with Robb's baby.

Some of you are acting like this is a complete betrayal of the story when it's actually setting up one of the series's biggest upcoming plot twists more gloriously than GRRM himself.

I highly doubt that's what they're doing. Do you really believe that "Talisa" is actually an elaborate setup for a plot theory that's only hinted at through one phrase "slender hips" in the series? Very, very unlikely and makes no sense.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Arrogant Bastard, on 26 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

I highly doubt that's what they're doing. Do you really believe that "Talisa" is actually an elaborate setup for a plot theory that's only hinted at through one phrase "slender hips" in the series? Very, very unlikely and makes no sense.

It's also less a plot than a crackpot theory and not a very likely one as that would make the King in the North a baby throughout the end of the books (unless of course said baby dies in another heartbreaking Stark tragedy).

[Abicion]

Arrogant Bastard, on 26 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Do you really believe that "Talisa" is actually an elaborate setup for a plot theory that's only hinted at through one phrase "slender hips" in the series?

The Red Wedding started with one phrase Elmar said in A Clash of Kings.

Arrogant Bastard, on 26 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Very, very unlikely and makes no sense.

Oh, it doesn't make sense for a party of rebels to be hiding the rightful heir of their murdered king when the reader is given radically different character descriptions of Jeyne?

Really now?

Edited by Abicion, 27 April 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[Fengari]

That the name is changed doesn't really bother me much. When I saw it I though it was just another Yara/Asha move to avoid confusion with Jeyne Poole.

The last name and the background isn't that important to me either. What is most important is that Robb will be breaking the marriage pact with the Freys. Who he does that with and the whole story behind her family, though an interesting aspect of the books, is not that important for the events that follow.

What bothers me a bit more is how different this Talisa is from Jeyne as a character. In the books, I understood Robb falling for Jeyne while she was nursing him, because she is depicted as a nice, sweet, loving person, and I felt that meeting someone like that must have been real nice for Robb after all that had happened to him. After all, he had a happy, protected childhood as the heir of a lord, and all of a sudden his brother has a severe accident and is then is attacked in his own home, his father captured and later murdered, his sisters are held hostage (as far as he knows), and he has to grow up really fast to wage a war because his family and their bannermen expect him to (after all, it's them that proclaim him King of the North, that was not his choice, which is by the way what I felt the whole conversation with Talisa was trying to convey: that he doesn't wage this war because he likes it, or out of ambition, but just because it is what he has to do). To me, choosing to marry Jeyne was not just about him doing the honourable thing after a moment of weakness, it was about him choosing Jeyne because she was actually the one thing in his life that made him happy, and could make him forget all that trouble for a while. It made the decision not less foolish, but understandable.

With Talisa, I cannot see the same thing. If she will be the one to nurse him when he gets injured, it would be very strange for the person we saw on that battlefield to start pampering him and being nice and sweet to him all of a sudden. It could be he's not going to be injured and the relationship will be more about his admiration for a strong woman who doesn't cringe when sawing off someone's leg, and who is not afraid to speak her mind to a King, but that is a serious deviation in character from the books and one I feel makes it less understandable why he would break the marriage pact.

I'm not judging yet, I'm interested to see how this develops, but I'm a bit apprehensive about it.

[Brienne the Beauty]

"Nice, sweet and loving" is OK for a character who barely appears and has no long-term role. A character who is actually onscreen needs to be a bit more interesting than that.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Abicion, on 27 April 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

The Red Wedding started with one phrase Elmar said in A Clash of Kings.



Oh, it doesn't make sense for a party of rebels to be hiding the rightful heir of their murdered king when the reader is given radically different character descriptions of Jeyne?

Really now?

No, it doesn't make sense for the tv show to put Jeyne under disguise as "Talisa" based on one phrase in the fourth book. I'm positive she's a new character and not Jeyne Westerling in some sort of secret disguise.

[Lord Godric]

According to Westeros' interview with Richard Madden Talisa is the characters real name?  I don't understand that change whatsoever.

[RSasoiaf]

Brienne the Beauty, on 27 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

"Nice, sweet and loving" is OK for a character who barely appears and has no long-term role. A character who is actually onscreen needs to be a bit more interesting than that.

This is not true!!!!

I will give you a really good example of a character who barelly had any lines and was still quite effective: Do you remember William Wallace´s love interest from Braveheart??? There you go! Perfect example!
I could even go also with Arwen from LOTR. Even if you consider Arwen´s little "adventure" on the first movie, even considering that, Arwen was allways depicted as really sweet and kind. She is even sweet on the way she begs her father for help. She has strength inside, but she is not arrogant, she is a Lady!

Now I understand that the concept of what a woman should or should not be did change a lot on the past years. But still, I think true Lady´s are still something that we can watch and relate to.

Besides, Robb is 17 or 18....even on this day and age, when we are that young, many boys just look for younger submissive girls around 15/16 because they will be shy, a bit submissive...and all happy campers for having a 18 boy looking at them. Like it or not....it kind of works like that. It´s only when we get more mature that we start thinking on other issues.

[Samalander]

If Talisa is Jeyne Westerling in disguise it's tolerable. If she's not...Why would Robb even marry her? Peasants don't have any honor that needs protecting. He could have many bastards with her and people wouldn't really care (much).

[Brienne the Beauty]

RSasoiaf, on 28 April 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

Besides, Robb is 17 or 18....even on this day and age, when we are that young, many boys just look for younger submissive girls around 15/16 because they will be shy, a bit submissive...and all happy campers for having a 18 boy looking at them. Like it or not....it kind of works like that. It´s only when we get more mature that we start thinking on other issues.

I get the feeling you are talking about yourself, not Robb. People's tastes differ, and Robb is being characterised as liking this girl who talks back.

Think of it from his point of view. He's one of the richest, most powerful young men in the land. He's not some high-school student who is stunned that a girl would actually want to talk to him, and he's used to all the girls he knows (who are all his father's servants and vassals and their family) being super-submissive and attentive. When the heir to Winterfell says jump, you jump. A girl who has no respect for him and his position is the novelty.

Samalander, on 28 April 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

If Talisa is Jeyne Westerling in disguise it's tolerable. If she's not...Why would Robb even marry her? Peasants don't have any honor that needs protecting. He could have many bastards with her and people wouldn't really care (much).

Um, have you been following Jon's plotline at all? It is true that Robb could legally impregnate every peasant girl he passes with no consequences. However, he is a Stark, and has had honour drilled into him from childhood. "Too much honour" is the defining Stark weakness. It's not that "people" would care, it's that he would care.

Book Robb could have done the same to Jeyne Westerling, anyway, as she was only a minor noble. He might have needed to marry her off to a bannerman to keep her family's honour if she became pregnant, that's all.