174 replies to this topic

[Hear Us Roar]

Also i lol'd when i saw they re-used Pycelle's whore. I mean come on Tyrion, you could have gotten someone new. I also thought he was gonna have sex with them after the beating

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 23 April 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Ser Chuck]

I think they thought torturing a hooker was more tv friendly than an attempted massacre of cute animals. Isn't that what he did with his crossbow in the books?

[Strider]

1)  Yes, we all know that Joffrey is a wicked and mean brat, but we have not seen quite this level of sadism.  This scene was not gratuitous nor needless.  The writers chose not to show the intensity of Sansa's beating.  Instead, they had Tyrion intervene and directly confront the king.  When Joffrey protests that a king can do anything, he reminds him of what happened to the mad king (whom Joffrey is beginning to look more and more like, thus demonstrating that royal madness and brutality are not restricted to the Targaryens).

2)  Joffrey then decides to exploit the gift of the whores (1) to satisfy his own sadistic desires and (2) to teach Tyrion a lesson.  Tyrion humiliated Joffrey.  Joffrey humiliates--and threatens--Tyrion, though in a less public way.  Joffrey will be the king who does whatever he wants to do; he will exercise power unrestrained by conscience, justice, and prudence.

3)  The beating of the whores also brings Littlefinger into the picture.  These are his property.  We already know how he values his investments.  The king has ruined, perhaps permanently, one of his investments, thereby implicitly threatening his wealth and power.  The writers are providing motivation for Littlefinger's eventual collaboration (orchestration?) in the murder of Joffrey.  This is a different LF than we find in the books, but no use complaining about this any longer.

None or little of this may be in the books, but I am convinced that the excessive number of prostitute scenes are not gratuitous sex scenes.  They have a narrative purpose.

Edited by Strider, 23 April 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Strider, on 23 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

3)  The beating of the whores also brings Littlefinger into the picture.  These are his property.  We already know how he values his investments.  The king has ruined, perhaps permanently, one of his investments, thereby implicitly threatening his wealth and power.  The writers are providing motivation for Littlefinger's eventual collaboration (orchestration?) in the murder of Joffrey.  This is a different LF than we find in the books, but no use complaining about this any longer.

None or little of this may be in the books, but I am convinced that the excessive number of prostitute scenes are not gratuitous sex scenes.  They have a narrative purpose.

In this episode I agree with the use of the whores as well.  This entire season they are slowly giving littlefinger motive to do what he does later on. (cersei threatening him on the street, Tyrion making false promises to him, now Joffrey messing with his business) and I think its beneficial to give littlefinger more motive because in SoS after the purple wedding he just kind of says "sometimes you need to shake things up" obv not in those words but either way its not very convincing to me.

[The Smiling Eye]

Tyrion is a bastard. He gave her 2 coins for her troubles then puts her under danger with Joffrey, she didn't even do anything. I thought he'd have more insight then that, he's supposed to be a good judge of character.

[David Selig]

Quote

The king has ruined, perhaps permanently, one of his investments, thereby implicitly threatening his wealth and power. The writers are providing motivation for Littlefinger's eventual collaboration (orchestration?) in the murder of Joffrey.

Oh, come on, it doesn't make sense for someone so rich and powerful like LF to organise a regicide just because one of his prostitutes was abused and (possibly) unable to do her job anymore. It would be incredibly petty and a huge overreaction.

[Rohanne]

I guess the question I still have is why not show the intensity of Sansa's beating? Tyrion still rescued her from possibly more beating in the book. That scene would have had more weight if they would have shown it like it was in the book. Of course, they wouldn't have had to show her topless, but kept her in her corset like they did.

[Scooby]

smo, on 23 April 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

although I thought the whore scene was very unnecessary, to some degree it had a point.  Joff is King, a king can do what he likes and he is showing his uncle this by doing whatever he feels like doing.  This uncle humiliated him in court, Joff couldn't let that stand.  From a character building point of view I get why they did it.  

I agree, I think the main focus of the scene is being lost.  I did not view it as overtly sexual, but more a message Joff was sending to Tyrion.   As evidenced by the whore saying she would go tell Tyrion what he had done, and he said she better or he would hurt her too.  
There is an underlying theme in the books of "Joff is the Mad King come again", however, it would seem that this is more punishment for Tyrion interupting Joff's fun at court than anything else.

[Lady Octarina]

My only problem with the scene was that it took time from things I would rather have watched for longer (Stannis, for instance). And, yes, I too had hoped he would rid us of Ros once and for all. Also, I don't understand what was the purpose of that if they didn't show Tyrion's reaction to what Joffrey had done - or will that happen next episode?

Well, when we read the books it's not hard to figure out the kind of sadistic brat Joffrey is, but on screen (and, most of all, on HBO) they have to exaggerate those things, it's inevitable. And the obvious parallels with Aerys are necessary too, might help explain why Tyrion and Jaime won't be sorry to see him dead for one thing. I only wish they would put more emphasis in his relationship with Cersei, in Cersei refusing to see the kind of monster her son became. Oh, and his cruelty will only make us love Tommen even more when the time for that comes, and nothing is more legitimate than that!

[Joffrey]

At least one bonus of this little deviation was when Tyrion told Bronn to kill Meryn if he opened his mouth again.

Awesome.

And they (HBO) seem to be fluffing up Tyrion simultaneously (with their painting of Joffrey) in prepping the audience for when Stannis' army shows up at Kings Landing and Tyrion's bravery.

[Dru]

I liked the scene actually. My wife who isn't a book reader said, "I didn't like Joffrey, but now I just want his ass dead. Tell me he dies slowly." I laughed for a good 15 min and had to pause the show.

[Rookie_Rider]

I agree, the show writers are really making Joffrey into a much bigger turd than he ever was in the books.  And while I appreciate gratuitous nudity, this one was not needed.  We already know Joffrey is a really bad boy.  There was no need for this scene.  All it did was take time away from the other characters.

[Giskard Reventlov]

I didn't see any reason for that scene.

Even the non-readers are by now well aware that Geoffrey is a psycho and sociopath. And one more scene like this doesn't tell us anything new.

Only reason for that scene is to add a little more sex. And, believe me, I don't have anything against sex scenes (au contraire, as Del Boy would say ). Books are full of them.

But , with adding the sex scenes that are not in the books we lose valuable time that could have been used to see on the screen some part of the book that was left out.

And in the prcess we don't see and learn anything new...I mean...we see that Geoffry is mad and Littlefinger is sociopath that cares only for himself (in the other episode)..like no one knew that.

Edited by Giscard Reventlov, 23 April 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

someone explain to me what is going on in the minds of people who want to see Sansa roughed up even more. Because I honestly don't understand it.

[therustman]

Interesting responses on here. I think when its seen in Europe especially continental Europe there will be less of a 'disturbed' reaction (I'm not saying there is anything wrong with such a reaction). As a Brit I had no problem with the scene, I guess a lot of reaction is cultural. Thought it set Joffery up even more as needing to die and as the clear 'evil bad guy' which is what TV viewers will want/are used to. It will only add to the glee when he bites the dust.

As for the scene, the time could have been used better. I wouldnt describe it as a sex scene at all as that was not its purpose but it did ram the point home and was no where near as bad as it had been suggested. The violence took place off screen and it was clear Joffery was abusing his power to make a point to Tyrion.

[kirazikins]

I think this scene has a larger purpose than just emphasizing how cruel Joffery is. This scene makes it seem like Joffery is also a sexual sadist.

We know that the Queen of Thrones will orchestrate Joffery's death. I think in the show it will be Margaery and this scene will be part of her motivation - she wouldn't want to marry a sexual sadist. Joffery seems to only be cruel to those who are weaker than him, his subjects and who he hates - Margaery as his wife probably wouldn't need fear him. BUT, if Joffery is a sexual sadist - she would not be able to escape his cruelty in the bedroom.

Also, we know that Littlefinger is apart of this orchestration. Ros will tell LF what happened, and LF will tell Margaery. Both of them will scheme to murder Joffery, allowing Margaery to marry super nice and young Tommen.

[Pliny]

Ataraxia60, on 23 April 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

Tyrion is a bastard. He gave her 2 coins for her troubles then puts her under danger with Joffrey, she didn't even do anything. I thought he'd have more insight then that, he's supposed to be a good judge of character.

I think the point of this scene is that up to this point the viewers and Tyrion  think Joffrey is, as Bronn said, a cunt.   The scene made me very uncomfortable, but it was supposed to.
When Joffry has the one prostitute smack the other a bit harder- okay, he likes violence. Then Joffrey takes off his belt, and we think- there, he's human after all, just an asshole. I don't know about you, but I didn't expect he was taking off his belt to use it as a weapon. The surprise is supposed to jolt us into realizing, "this kid is not just a jerk, he's something worse." And when he handed her the scepter, I don't even want to recall what I thought he meant for her to do. At that point we (and Tyrion too, later) know he is a sociopathic monster.

I've seen a lot of posters in this thread saying things like "enough already! We know he's a sadist!" but I'm not sure viewers did. Now they know what he is.

To the question of "why not show more intense Sansa-beating instead?" I know it was in the books, but I just don't think it's very realistic.

therustman, on 23 April 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

I think when its seen in Europe especially continental Europe there will be less of a 'disturbed' reaction (I'm not saying there is anything wrong with such a reaction). As a Brit I had no problem with the scene, I guess a lot of reaction is cultural.

What I think most found disturbing about this scene was the fear and vulnerability of the two women, and the suggestion that one women be forced to brutalize and sodomize the other with a large object. Why wouldn't Europeans find that unsettling?

[Rohanne]

I don't want to see her roughed up more for the sake of my own pleasure, but it missed a moment with Sandor that I love and they wouldn't have needed to show the second scene with Joffrey if he would have acted like he did in the original scene. I actually really love Sansa and want her out of there, no personal ill will towards her.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I really hoped they would make the Sansa-scene longer, like it was in the book. It would've made the scene more kickass as Tyrion would've walked in and the Hound would express his disagreement. Then the scene with the whores wouldn't be necessary, as Joffrey's cruelty with Sansa would make that more than clear.
Oh, but who am I to say this? (: My favourite character is Sansa after all, so I'm biased.

[Dragon of Valyria]

My problem with it, as I said in the other thread, is that it completely knocks the sails out of Sansa's scene right before it. The whores are all that people are going to be talking about, and that's a problem. Sansa's a main character and her beating in front of the whole court is hugely significant, as Tyrion points out. Yet it's utterly undercut.

I don't mind that Sansa's beating was reduced in the show. Honestly, I'm not sure if I could have taken much more. It was bad enough to see the two blows, and Tyrion's intervention was timely and that whole scene was well crafted. Why they followed it up with the prostitutes is... I don't know.