152 replies to this topic

[tom_saxon]

I knew what was going to happen (read ahead in the wiki) but I still think I would have felt a sense of foreboding if I haden't.  GRRM  is has fataly realistic story arcs.

Before I read ahead even, I knew Rob could never be ultimately succesfull.  Mainly because he tolerated the likes of Frey.  The Tullys being a Northern House, and the Freys being bannermen of the Tullys, Robs first order of business should have been to offer Frey an opportunity to pledge fealty to the King of The North.  Failing that opportunity, Rob should have done whatever was nescessary to take The Twins, and utterly annihlate House Frey.  Likewise he should have secured fealty from the Greyjoys.   You can't expand your power without consolodating your base.  Robb is a fantastic tactician but piss poor at strategy and ultimately a terribly failed King.

As far as what was going on from the Stark point of view immediately prior to the rw, I think the characters felt a lot of tredipation as well but really felt like this was their only opion and so put their fears aside and hoped for the best.  But, to me, it was absolute idiocy to trust Frey, ESPECIALLY given that Frey knew he was their only option.

[Ramsay Gimp]

tom_saxon, on 25 November 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I knew what was going to happen (read ahead in the wiki) but I still think I would have felt a sense of foreboding if I haden't.  GRRM  is has fataly realistic story arcs.

Before I read ahead even, I knew Rob could never be ultimately succesfull.  Mainly because he tolerated the likes of Frey.  The Tullys being a Northern House, and the Freys being bannermen of the Tullys, Robs first order of business should have been to offer Frey an opportunity to pledge fealty to the King of The North.  Failing that opportunity, Rob should have done whatever was nescessary to take The Twins, and utterly annihlate House Frey.  Likewise he should have secured fealty from the Greyjoys.   You can't expand your power without consolodating your base.  Robb is a fantastic tactician but piss poor at strategy and ultimately a terribly failed King.

But he wasn't in a position to do either of those things. House Tully is a house of the Riverlands, not the North. The Freys owe them fealty, and basically owe the Starks nothing. Granted, Walder should have been helping Edmure and Hoster already by the time Robb went south. But if Robb attacked the Twins, he would have lost thousands of soldiers (it's a strong castle, hard to assault since it crosses a river) and would have left himself vulnerable to the Lannisters.

And how would he have forced the Greyjoys to join him? He has no fleet. Unless you mean he should have sent a better envoy and kept Theon a hostage, in which case I agree

[tom_saxon]

Ramsay Gimp, on 25 November 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

But he wasn't in a position to do either of those things. House Tully is a house of the Riverlands, not the North. The Freys owe them fealty, and basically owe the Starks nothing. Granted, Walder should have been helping Edmure and Hoster already by the time Robb went south. But if Robb attacked the Twins, he would have lost thousands of soldiers (it's a strong castle, hard to assault since it crosses a river) and would have left himself vulnerable to the Lannisters.

And how would he have forced the Greyjoys to join him? He has no fleet. Unless you mean he should have sent a better envoy and kept Theon a hostage, in which case I agree

I was under the understanding that House Tully pledged fealty to the Starks as Kings.  In either case, Frey needed to bend to Tully.  An assault would surely be difficult, but such a strategic location can't be left in any doubt what so ever in a war.  The war would be won or lost ultimately at the Twins, better lost in a failed assault on the twins, and consolodate everything north of the Twins (at least at The Neck), than to lose it due to something like the red wedding.

As far as the Greyjoys-  there is a lot he could have done.  Some understanding of Balon would be a good start.  Sending Theon back was a collosal blunder.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

tom_saxon, on 25 November 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

...As far as the Greyjoys-  there is a lot he could have done.  Some understanding of Balon would be a good start.  Sending Theon back was a collosal blunder.

Yup.That seems to be the running tragic flaw of the Starks--putting trust in the wrong people.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

tom_saxon, on 25 November 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I knew what was going to happen (read ahead in the wiki) but I still think I would have felt a sense of foreboding if I haden't.  GRRM  is has fataly realistic story arcs.

The moment Grey Wind began to act strangely I knew the end was near.

[Ser Skuall the Wolfheart]

barrychenault, on 22 April 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Hey guys! I'm new here and reading through A Song of Ice and Fire for the first time! =]
So, I am not quite done with ASoS, and I just read the chapter with the Red Wedding yesterday. I am wondering..did anyone else feel an overwhelming sense of foreboding and dread leading up to those events? I kept talking to my friends about it and saying that I felt like something terrible was going to happen. Did anyone else pick up on the foreshadowing that was going on?

God know if the last page is still talking about this initial post or went on a tangent but...

I saw this coming. Back in a Clash of Kings when Dany was in the House of the Warlocks (or was it Undying?) she had a bunch of visions. In one of those visions she saw a dead king with the head of a Wolf in a bloody hall full of corpses, or something like that. When I read that, I thought the Others were going to eff up one of the Starks, but I never imagined it would be Walder Frey killing Robb AND Cat.

I seriously wanted to cry of anger after reading Cat's final chapter, but damn it made for a great story!

[Ramsay Gimp]

tom_saxon, on 25 November 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

I was under the understanding that House Tully pledged fealty to the Starks as Kings.  In either case, Frey needed to bend to Tully.  

Yes, the Freys are sworn to House Tully of Riverrun. But the Tullys didn't owe the Starks fealty until the end of AGOT when all of the Riverlords (including Edmure) bent the knee to Robb and declared him King. Before that, including when Robb showed up to cross the Twins, the Riverlands was its own region, separate from the North, ruled by the Tullys

[tom_saxon]

Ramsay Gimp, on 28 November 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Yes, the Freys are sworn to House Tully of Riverrun. But the Tullys didn't owe the Starks fealty until the end of AGOT when all of the Riverlords (including Edmure) bent the knee to Robb and declared him King. Before that, including when Robb showed up to cross the Twins, the Riverlands was its own region, separate from the North, ruled by the Tullys

Still I think the war is won or lost with the twins, and if Stark couldn't "own" the twins in some way or another, he should have just consolodated everything north of the neck.

[Quiet Isle]

barrychenault, on 22 April 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Hey guys! I'm new here and reading through A Song of Ice and Fire for the first time! =]
So, I am not quite done with ASoS, and I just read the chapter with the Red Wedding yesterday. I am wondering..did anyone else feel an overwhelming sense of foreboding and dread leading up to those events? I kept talking to my friends about it and saying that I felt like something terrible was going to happen. Did anyone else pick up on the foreshadowing that was going on?

  oh yes.  oh yes.  the two bands, both playing poorly, and different songs too i believe, the music dissonant chords against each other.  the boom boom doom of the drums.  even the tension between the people.

but never, in a million years, did i ever see that coming.  not THAT.  omg.

affecting.  i wanted to throw my kindle against a tree.

Edited by RAGNAROK, 28 November 2012 - 06:39 PM.

[Ser Troye of the Sands]

lydiapurple, on 22 May 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

I had spoiled the red wedding for myself before reading it, but thought the events leading up to it were all the more frightening. The hard rain, Grey Wind, the distortion created by the loud drums and free flowing alchohol. It was really scary! : *(
The injustice done to them makes me so mad. Catelyn was so brave up until the very end : (

You are the first person I saw who mentioned the heavy rains. Throughout the entire series there was barely any rain, but as soon as the talk about the marriage between Roslin and Edmure, the rains became torrential. The constant downpour, the overflowing rivers, it was just such an ominous, unusual element in the book.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

troyrichison, on 29 November 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

You are the first person I saw who mentioned the heavy rains. Throughout the entire series there was barely any rain, but as soon as the talk about the marriage between Roslin and Edmure, the rains became torrential. The constant downpour, the overflowing rivers, it was just such an ominous, unusual element in the book.

I thought that was some heavy foreshadowing w/ the rain. Also the storms were, in hindsight, alluding to the "Rains of Castamere."

[Cellio]

GRRM put my picture of thr red wedding on his website!

http://www.georgerrm...ns/fans138.html

[StarkTagaryen]

barrychenault, on 22 April 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Yeah, I never expected for Walder to murder Robb and Cat. I was completely shocked, and absolutely furious, but even so, I did feel an overwhelming sense of dread leading up to the wedding. Didn't even think something bad would happen at the wedding. Haha.

I didn't expect their deaths but something bad was going to happen because Robb broke his word to Walder Frey but it does make me wonder if something bad would have happened later if Robb did marry the frey girl

[Nerolunar]

Yes, i actually did. it rained, the food was bad, and Roslin was´nt shwoing her feelings. Im shocked, but I still think Catelyns POV´s was one of the worst.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

Just read this chapter and had to join and find a place to vent. I'm still in shock and I accidentally stumbled upon the "Red Wedding" yesterday on the wiki, even still I'm in shock. I mean, I knew from the beginning of the book something was going to happen to Robb. I've been feeling like something bad would happen to him for awhile due to both from Dany's vision and for some reason, the story from Bran's POV has had me feeling all along that he is being set-up to be the heir of Winterfell, though who knows since Bran's story is taking a different turn than I expected. But never something so heinous as what happened and to add Catelyn in it as well. Oh my goodness!

I can't talk to my hubby about it because he wants to wait for the show and I definitely won't spoil it for him. But oh my goodness! I want to reach into the book and grab Lord Frey myself.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

Cellio, on 23 December 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

GRRM put my picture of thr red wedding on his website!

http://www.georgerrm...ns/fans138.html

That is so cool! Congrats. I really dig the piece as well.

[Pinkie Baelish]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wBMKARtQReE

That was me after I read the chapter

[Ser Jake]

I just got this text from a friend reading Storm of Swords...

"Holy sh*t! I think Robb and Catelyn just got killed! He wouldn't do that, would he?"

I just had to laugh to myself.

[Stanny B Da Nice]

Just finished the Red Wedding sequence. I was all spoiled to it, knew it was coming, but was still shocked when it happened. But that's a credit to GRRM's writing, and he's really at the top of his game here. One unexpected reaction, and this may sound morbid or cruel to you Stark supporters, but after reading Tyrion's  subsequent POV, I couldn't help but thinking how much of a boss Tywin Lannister is for pulling all these strings. And when you think about it, Robb was only a sixteen year old boy, going up against the likes of Tywin Lannister, poor Robb was in way over his head.

[GillyTarly]

The whole chapter made me cry my eyes out. The events afterwards, the Freys were dropping like flies. I call it Karma.