84 replies to this topic

[eyeheartsansa]

Here's the notes posted in the Citadel:

Quote

Quote

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."

Most of her words accurately detail the Red Wedding, from the cacophony of the music and screams, to the bells of Jinglebell. The maid at the feast is Sansa, with the venomous snakes in her hair representing the poison she unwittingly carried in her hair net. The slaying of the giant in the snow castle by Sansa is much disputed, however. We prefer to think that it is a fairly mundane vision of Sansa tearing apart Robert Arryn's giant doll in the castle. However, many think that in fact the snow castle may represent Winterfell and that Sansa will kill Gregor Clegane there. Others have suggested that the stone giant may instead refer to Littlefinger, referencing his grandfather's shield bearing the stony Titan of Braavos.
The main reason we are not firm on our preferred theory is that the latter explanation would fit our interpretation of Bran's dream of the stone giant, if the figure is supposed to have an important impact on Sansa's fate. So far, Gregor Clegane has provided only the most indirect impact on her life, with his role as a primary instigator of the war.

So do you guys think the giant is Robert, Littlefinger or someone else?  Is the castle the Veil, Winterfell, or some other castle?  Or is it just what it looks like - robert and the actual snow castle at the end of ASOS.  What do you guys think?

[theguyfromtheVale]

I honestly don't know. Sansa ripping the doll's head off is more than just a little anticlimactic. And her offing Littlefinger with the same poison that was associated with her just one sentence earlier makes too much sense for me not to happen.

But then, Tyrion has often been referred to as a giant, and Sansa would probably like to get rid of him; UnGregor needs to die, and Bran's vision of him makes me wary of simply discounting him; and I could even see Sansa getting back to Winterfell and killing a literal giant - Wun Wun is south of the Wall, after all, and once the Wall falls, there might be more giants coming south...

Edited by theguyfromtheVale, 23 April 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

Seems pointless to have a prophetic dream about a childish squabble no?

I think the castle is WF and LF is the giant. Winter is upon the north and Winterfell is quite nearly buried in snow-almost literally a castle of snow.

Then there is Varys' foreshadowing: A very small man can cast a very large shadow."

[eyeheartsansa]

No way GRRM would let Sansa kill Tyrion.  That would just be ... awful.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Why are you so sure about Sansa not killing Tyrion? An what would be awful about it? I like him quite a bit (even if he's often bothering me, too), but Sansa sure would be way better off if Tyrion was dead...

[eyeheartsansa]

not really.. Sansa has bigger fish to fry than Tyrion - who was quite nice to her.  And they never consummated the wedding anyway.  Why kill him when an anullment would do instead?

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 23 April 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

eyeheartsansa, on 23 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

No way GRRM would let Sansa kill Tyrion.  That would just be ... awful.

eyeheartsansa, on 23 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

No way GRRM would let Sansa kill Tyrion.  That would just be ... awful.

Why does everyone assume Varys is talking about Tyrion?

Quote

“Then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they? Whence came their swords? Why do they obey?” Varys smiled. “Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor’sSept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword?Or . . . another?”
Tyrion cocked his head sideways. “Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?”
Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”
“So power is a mummer’s trick?”
“A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

Varys is talking about Petyr-he planted the idea of killing Ned in Joff's head, he is physically and politically a small man yet on that day, he cast a very long shadow.

[Lady Kraken]

Winter, on 23 April 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Why does everyone assume Varys is talking about Tyrion?

Varys is talking about Petyr-he planted the idea of killing Ned in Joff's head, he is physically and politically a small man yet on that day, he cast a very long shadow.

I agree. I always thought Varys was talking about Petyr in that line as well. There are also quite a few references to him being a "small" man throughout the book, regarding his height and his birth. And then there's his nickname as well--Littlefinger. He is seen as a small man but, in reality, he's a giant and few have figured it out yet.

I'm not sure who I think Sansa's giant will end up being--it could just be Robert's doll, but I doubt it. My guess would be Littlefinger. The Baelish sigil being the Titan of Braavos and the parallel between Petyr stepping over the walls of Sansa's snow castle and Arya thinking the Titan of Braavos could step right over the walls of Winterfell in one of her chapters seems pretty significant to me.

Edited by Lady Kraken, 23 April 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[theguyfromtheVale]

I'm not basing that on Varys' quote, but rather on Shae's 'giant of Lannister' line.

And while Tyrion indeed was about as nice towards Sansa as could be expected given the circumstances, he still wasn't what Sansa wanted. And if she ever wants to get married again, she needs to get that marriage annuled and the charges against her cleared. I don't see that happening any time soon. Once Tyrion is dead, though, the calculus changes.

[Winter's Knight]

theguyfromtheVale, on 23 April 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I'm not basing that on Varys' quote, but rather on Shae's 'giant of Lannister' line.

And while Tyrion indeed was about as nice towards Sansa as could be expected given the circumstances, he still wasn't what Sansa wanted. And if she ever wants to get married again, she needs to get that marriage annuled and the charges against her cleared. I don't see that happening any time soon. Once Tyrion is dead, though, the calculus changes.

With all due respect, Shae's "Giant of Lannister" was an empty placebo bought with coin-I don't count it as very reliable foreshadowing, especially since the last time she called him that, he killed her.

Edit: as to their marriage-it is as Sansa thinks about Dontos after the Purple Wedding: Joff is dead, his decrees don't matter anymore.
And anyway, chances are Dan'll feed him to Viseryon soon.

Edited by Winter's Knight, 23 April 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Winter, on 23 April 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Seems pointless to have a prophetic dream about a childish squabble no?

I think the castle is WF and LF is the giant. Winter is upon the north and Winterfell is quite nearly buried in snow-almost literally a castle of snow.

Then there is Varys' foreshadowing: A very small man can cast a very large shadow."

A lot of the prophecies in the series are pointless. What was the point of Jon having a prophecy about what he was going to see two miles down the road on the milk water?

What was the of the Ghost of High heart foreseeing that Balon  would be pushed of the rope bridge at Pyke by a faceless man?

Most of the prophecies are just little easter eggs for dedicated readers to puzzle about.  I would say 1/10 are "meaningful".

[Nymeria_Snow]

I don't know about the LF theory- he's not just a giant, but a savage giant. "Savage" doesn't seem to fit with his character, despite his personality.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Winter, on 23 April 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

With all due respect, Shae's "Giant of Lannister" was an empty placebo bought with coin-I don't count it as very reliable foreshadowing, especially since the last time she called him that, he killed her.

Edit: as to their marriage-it is as Sansa thinks about Dontos after the Purple Wedding: Joff is dead, his decrees don't matter anymore.
And anyway, chances are Dan'll feed him to Viseryon soon.

I always thought Euron was going to feed Dany to Drogon.... well... as long as someone is getting eaten by a dragon.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Winter, on 23 April 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

With all due respect, Shae's "Giant of Lannister" was an empty placebo bought with coin-I don't count it as very reliable foreshadowing, especially since the last time she called him that, he killed her.

Edit: as to their marriage-it is as Sansa thinks about Dontos after the Purple Wedding: Joff is dead, his decrees don't matter anymore.
And anyway, chances are Dan'll feed him to Viseryon soon.

You know, I'm not even saying Tyrion is among those most likely to be the prophecized giant. I just can't leave him out of consideration, even if Littlefinger is the most likely candidate in my book, with UnGregor still more likely than Tyrion.

[Winter's Knight]

theguyfromtheVale, on 23 April 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

You know, I'm not even saying Tyrion is among those most likely to be the prophecized giant. I just can't leave him out of consideration, even if Littlefinger is the most likely candidate in my book, with UnGregor still more likely than Tyrion.

I'm sorry, I did not mean to come off so snappishly.

Tyrion is a candidate for the role, I just feel that LF fits better-although that's partly because I wish to see LLL's reaction to LF being killed by Sansa.

[protar]

Tyrion is often reffered to as a giant but I don't know whether that's prophetic. We do have a lot of allusions to Tyrion being either a giant or casting a large shadow:

.Varys (debatably.)
.Moqorro
.Jon
.Aemon
.Shae

Am I missing anything?

[Longspear Ryk]

Whitewalls got torn down right?


i really don't see it being tyrion considering the Stone part... I could see little finger, Robert Strong, or some huge mofo with greyscale..

Edited by Longspear Ryk, 23 April 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Capon Breath]

protar, on 23 April 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Tyrion is often reffered to as a giant but I don't know whether that's prophetic. We do have a lot of allusions to Tyrion being either a giant or casting a large shadow:

.Varys (debatably.)
.Moqorro
.Jon
.Aemon
.Shae

Am I missing anything?

You just beat me to what I was about to say - Tyrion is repeatedly referred to as a giant by multiple characters - I think you have a full list.

[Buckwheat]

I believe the giant is Robert Arryn's doll just to show that prophecies can sometimes foreshadow something that might not look important at all. Actually, correct me if I am wrong, but this is the first time Sansa does something pretty violent in the story, what may have a bigger impact later.

[jarl the climber]

Tyrion is a small man who casts a large shadow, Genna refers to Tywin in a similar light. I think Sansa refered to the Eyrie as a castle made of snow or something so close as to make no difference. The Giant probaly refers to the symbol used by LFs Father. It does not necassarily mean that Sansa kills him, Peytr uses the Mockingbird as his symbol not the Giant of Bravos. Lysa Arryn was the person who died in the Castle made of Snow but she is Tully(fish) and Arryn(Falcon). Lysa was pretty much LFs creature and the Giant really represents her .

Winterfell is not the castle made of snow. It has hot geyser water running through walls and is located on a hot springs.