81 replies to this topic

[FaelaeshioDream]

I have read all five books but it has been awhile. I am writing a research paper on the Power and Leadership of Daenerys for one of my English classes. Can anyone tell me (and provide the textual reference) 1) If Queens were allowed to inherit the Iron Throne in their own right under the Targaryen rule. 2) If so, were there any Queen Regnants in the past (names and dates)?

Anyone who wants to chime in on how they perceive Daenerys as a leader and what they think about her sources and use of power are more than welcome.

Thanks!

[Sasha Steelsong]

The short answer is no to the Queens (no clue about the Queen Regents but my gut says no as well).  After the fiasco with the Blackfyre branch, they basically switched to the french system which put all males no matter how distant ahead of their female relatives for the throne, and cut off the decendants of the women from the successon.  Whether a female could have technically inherited before the switch I don't know, but I don't think one ever did.  The intent of the change was to cut of any claims to the throne from a female branch of the family (in part becuase the whole Blackfyre mess involved a female-line claimant to the Iron Throne).

ETA: My mistake - as pointed out below - it was not the Blackfyre rebellion but the Dance of Dragons that caused the change to the Salic system.

Edited by atpthornton, 23 April 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Whoops! Double post. Sorry.

Edited by atpthornton, 23 April 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[Apple Martini]

It was because of the Dance of the Dragons, not the Blackfyre Rebellion. Rhaenyra lost and after that, women could only inherit the Iron Throne when all other male claimants had been exhausted. This was never the case — there was always a brother or a cousin or someone. In any case, the Blackfyre Rebellion wasn't about a female-line claimant, but rather Aegon IV's legitimized bastards.

So there has never been a female monarch on the Iron Throne, nor a regent, from what I recall. Only consorts.

My blood pressure goes up whenever I discuss the clusterfuck that is Dany's leadership, so I'll decline on that point.

[theguyfromtheVale]

atpthornton, on 23 April 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

The short answer is no to the Queens (no clue about the Queen Regents but my gut says no as well).  After the fiasco with the Blackfyre branch, they basically switched to the french system which put all males no matter how distant ahead of their female relatives for the throne, and cut off the decendants of the women from the successon.  Whether a female could have technically inherited before the switch I don't know, but I don't think one ever did.  The intent of the change was to cut of any claims to the throne from a female branch of the family (in part becuase the whole Blackfyre mess involved a female-line claimant to the Iron Throne).

Eh, the Targaryens switched to Salic law after the original Dance with Dragons, some 100 years before the Blackfyre rebellions.

But yeah, Targaryen queens can only rule in their own right if there are no legitimate male Targaryens around. Which means that a real Aegon or a Jon whose parentage is revealed would come ahead of Dany in any case. And even Stannis might have a better claim than Daenerys, depending on the interpretation of the Targaryen rules of inheritance.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Yes you both are correct.  And I knew that but somehow conflated the two in my head. My bad, sorry. Either way, same end result with no women on the throne.  Don't know if Queen Regent was ever really addressed (i.e. can't remember if GRRM included this when he created the Targ history), though no one seems to be questioning Cersei (but that could be because she's a Lannister and the rest of the Westerosi houses follow inheritance laws that do allow for the woman to inherit - not sure if it would have been the same if we were still dealing with House Targaryen).

Edited by atpthornton, 23 April 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[the Scorpion Knight]

theguyfromtheVale, on 23 April 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Eh, the Targaryens switched to Salic law after the original Dance with Dragons, some 100 years before the Blackfyre rebellions.

But yeah, Targaryen queens can only rule in their own right if there are no legitimate male Targaryens around. Which means that a real Aegon or a Jon whose parentage is revealed would come ahead of Dany in any case. And even Stannis might have a better claim than Daenerys, depending on the interpretation of the Targaryen rules of inheritance.

even if it is revealed that jon and aegon are half brothers jon is still a snow because there was no Known marriage between rhaegar and lyanna

[Apple Martini]

the Scorpion Knight, on 23 April 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

even if it is revealed that jon and aegon are half brothers jon is still a snow because there was no Known marriage between rhaegar and lyanna

You don't think that Martin would have a way to prove it within the story, if it were important?

[Sasha Steelsong]

the Scorpion Knight, on 23 April 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

even if it is revealed that jon and aegon are half brothers jon is still a snow because there was no Known marriage between rhaegar and lyanna

Unless of course there is also a revelation of a secret unknown marriage happening, and there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence already which lends support to that idea.

[Lord Varys]

Aegon III had a Lord Regent (Lord Velaryon, who likely was related to him), but as far as we know there was never a Queen (or Princess) Regent. Technically the later Viserys II should have also been Prince Regent of Daeron I (he served as his Hand), but as it seems the Young Dragon did nit give a damn about technicalities.

All other Targaryen kings apparently were men grown when they ascended the Iron Throne.

[the Scorpion Knight]

atpthornton, on 23 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Unless of course there is also a revelation of a secret unknown marriage happening, and there is a fair amount of circumstantial evidence already which lends support to that idea.

even if that happen it would be still considered an illegal marriage BECAUSE OF LACK of witness
no, the not-marrying I think it was meant as a sign of rejectment from lyanna to robert saying "I'D rather be his whore than your wife"

[Apple Martini]

the Scorpion Knight, on 23 April 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

even if that happen it would be still considered an illegal marriage BECAUSE OF LACK of witness
no, the not-marrying I think it was meant as a sign of rejectment from lyanna to robert saying "I'D rather be his whore than your wife"

Again, I ask ... You don't think that Martin would have a way to prove it within the story, if it were important? Not to derail the thread but your comment was its own derailment in a way, so ... yeah.

ETA: And how do you know there weren't any witnesses?

Edited by Apple Martini, 23 April 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[theguyfromtheVale]

the Scorpion Knight, on 23 April 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

even if that happen it would be still considered an illegal marriage BECAUSE OF LACK of witness
no, the not-marrying I think it was meant as a sign of rejectment from lyanna to robert saying "I'D rather be his whore than your wife"

Who's to say there's no living witness? Septon Meribald, Howland Reed, Benjen, Bloodraven, Bran... all these might know, and might have been there at their wedding.

Also, there's the fact that Robb might have legitimized Jon...

[Apple Martini]

theguyfromtheVale, on 23 April 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Who's to say there's no living witness? Septon Meribald, Howland Reed, Benjen, Bloodraven, Bran... all these might know, and might have been there at their wedding.

Also, there's the fact that Robb might have legitimized Jon...

Two words: Quiet. Isle.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Indeed, I forgot about the Elder Brother...

So yeah, I don't think we can assume just yet that Jon is a bastard, or that his legitimacy will be unprovable. There are too many people who might know, depending on the circumstances. Noone is confirmed yet, so it still might go the other way. But somehow, the presence of the KG at the ToJ does imply that Jon was legitimate after all.

Plus, again, Jon being a bastard might not matter at all, depending on the wording of Robb's will. Which would be a great irony: The Targaryen heir recognized as legitimate only because he was legitimized by a 'king' who had that title only because of two rebellions, the first of which deposed the Targaryens...

[Mumatil]

Technically no, but many rulers can over ride this rule by right of conquest.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

I know there was an instance where there was supposed to be a queen as she was groomed for years to be her fathers heir.  He remarried after her mom did and had a son in that marriage, although he still named her as his heir in his will.  However, a Kingsguard knight chose to disregard and name the oldest male of the children King.  It even led to a civil war which the brother won and subsequently fed his sister to his dragon. Aegon II and his half-sister Rhaenyra Targaryen were their names I believe.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Yep. That was the Dance with Dragons that atpthornton and I originally mentioned. Since then, though, there has been (hyper-)Salic law in effect for the Targaryens, with women as good as banned from ever inherited.

[Ser Lepus]

theguyfromtheVale, on 23 April 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Who's to say there's no living witness? Septon Meribald, Howland Reed, Benjen, Bloodraven, Bran... all these might know, and might have been there at their wedding.

Also, there's the fact that Robb might have legitimized Jon...

Bloodraven and Bran wouldn´t count, since they would have to prove they are omniscient first, Septon Meribald is a nobody whose testimony could be countered by a dozen fake ones bought by those opposing Jon´t legitimacy, and Howland Reed and Benjen would be doubted, since they would be trying to put a bastard of Winterfell on the Iron Throne (they wouldn´t be seen as impartial).

Even if there were 100 % proof of Jon parentage, there is still the matter of the legality of a second marriage: Westerosi don´t acknowledge polygamic marriages as legal; the Targayrens could use their power to impose their own valyrians customs to the andals and first men in the past, but now Targayrens aren´t ruling, and they can´t menace the westerosi into accepting anything that goes against their own belief and traditions.

The only way Jon could be accepted as a trueborn Targayren is if putting him on the throne were good for the selfish interest of many powerful people, who decided to ignore tradition and andal/first men law and accept polygamy.

I guess Dany or Aegon, if they got the throne, could legalize polygamy, but they would be the least interested in acknowledging Jon´s rights.

[Sunni]

Danaerys has several sources of power:

Her Targayen name
Her beauty
Her sense of duty
Her advisors (Jorah Mormont then Barristan Selmy)
Her dragons
Her intuitive sense of how to hatch dragons... And ride them.