116 replies to this topic

[Ashen Shugar]

I think book Tywin is just as likeable as tv Tywin. Like pretty much all of martins characters he is not one dimensional, yes he is an arse but he has good reason to be so, I've always been a bit sympathetic towards him. Well not always, early on in the books I didn't like him but when you learn a bit more about him he grows on you.

[Mulled Wino]

The Monkey, on 24 April 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

I read the books after season the first HBO season, so I was biased by Charles Lance badassry when reading about book-Tywin. Thus I never saw him as a true villain, and was actually pretty sad when Tyrion killed him.

Him bossing around Joffrey in season 3 was one of my favourite moments, and no doubt the TV-crowd will fall in love with him even more
afterwards. Because of this, it's very important that they keep the scenes of him insulting Tyrion so that they understand and sympathize with Tyrion's decision to kill him.

I LOVE when he punks Joff.

[Mulled Wino]

People are always shitting on tywin's oarenting skills, but he was off being the hand for like 20 yrs or something if im not mistaken.  Those were probably the formative years of his children's lives.

[Rockroi]

Just continuing the Tywin debate.

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Yes, Tywin restored the glory of House Lannister, but he did not start from scratch.

Well, nobody in this series really ever started from scratch so I am not sure what this really means.

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In fact, technically it was Lord Tytos who dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks since, well, Tytos Lannister still was Lord of Casterly Rock when Tywin dealt with them. We don't know all that much about the details, but this was an open rebellion and not some backstabbing thing (Bolton and Frey stabbed Robb in the back, whereas the Reynes and Tarbecks were stupid enough to rebel openly against their liege lord).

First, this is irrelevant because your point was that Tywin had never commanded men in the field, not that he had never done so while Lord. And second, its, untrue.  “Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. Martin, George R.R. (2003-03-04). A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (p. 272). Bantam. Kindle Edition. In other words, they were HIS vassels, noyt his father's.

Later-

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(Jaime’s) father had never been unduly swayed by sentiment. Tywin Lannister’s own father Lord Tytos had once imprisoned an unruly bannerman, Lord Tarbeck. The redoubtable Lady Tarbeck responded by capturing three Lannisters, including young Stafford, whose sister was betrothed to cousin Tywin. “Send back my lord and love, or these three shall answer for any harm that comes him,” she had written to Casterly Rock. Young Tywin suggested his father oblige by sending back Lord Tarbeck in three pieces. Lord Tytos was a gentler sort of lion, however, so Lady Tarbeck won a few more years for her muttonheaded lord…  

Martin, George R.R. (2003-03-04). A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (pp. 607-608). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

In other words Tywin acted against the Castemer’s etc after he became lord; Tytos would never have done somethinga s audacious as leveling the Tarbecks and Castemeres. And again, not sure what your point is if everyone agrees Tywin was the one who achieved this end.

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But I'll still downplay this whole thing. Tywin did not prove himself to be a great military commander during this 'war' (no one ever mentions the great Lord Tywin even defeated a larger army in the field or something like that), he proved to be a man without mercy at a very early age. His whole reputation is that of a man without mercy if you cross him.

Untrue.  Again, you ignore Tywin’s own advice to Joff that after a war you have to help a foe off his knees.  That’s worth remembering.  And the fact that there are no stories of great military victories of Tywin are 1) not true; Selmy states as much when remembering the Defiance at Tuskendale and 2) irrelevant.  Nobody ever remembers great military victories by Ned or Hoster Tully nor the Blackfish etc but they all have pretty in-tact reputations.  

And you are downplaying it because in the words of Jim Carey in "Liar Liar" "Its devestating to your case."

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As to him being Hand under Aerys - I don't consider it an accomplishment to serve under him. Apparently Aerys's reign was all peace and quiet until the Defiance and the Rebellion.

Again, how is that easy?  Ned totally blundered at ruling with peace and prosperity; Jon Arryn was a good Hand, but then you will recall he helped bankrupt the ream and could not handle an out-of-control Robert.

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And Aerys was not that mad until the very end.

He always showed signs of madness; it was just accelerated after Duskendale.

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As I see it, Tywin got the reputation of being the true king because Aerys was very much an absentee king.

Again, did not help Ned or Jon Arryn.  Did not help Jon Connington or the other Hands that followed after Tywin.

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He left the tiring day-to-day business to his Hand and old friend. As long as Tywin and Aerys had no quarrel, Tywin did not do all his great things against King Aerys, but with him. Aerys apparently was no Joffrey, you did not need to distract him to prevent him from himself, his dynasty, or the Realm.

So was Tywin a great Hand because of his relationship with Aerys or in spite of it?  Did he rule the realm or not?  Because here you are trying to say that Tywin was great because he had a partnership with Aerys (again- fat ‘lotta good such partnerships did men like Connington and Stark) then try to saw Aerys was an abscentee King?  So which is it?  It sounds to me like Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms for 15 years.

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As to him being the power behind King Robert: Nonsense. Tywin ended up lending money to Lord Tywin (sic), but he had no active say/influence in the governance of the Realm under King Robert.

So, the fact that it was a Lannister as Grand Maester; that Varys stayed on the counsel; that his son was left on the KG; that his daughter was queen; that his money owned the crown; that his men served in the watch and fought for the King- all meaningless?  Guess again.  The fact that Jon Arryn made Robert marry Cersei was proof of how much influence Tywin had over it all.  And with Robert’;s spending you could not have a Kingdom without Lannister Gold.

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During the Greyjoy Rebellion Robert himself, Ned, and Stannis led the main forces into battle. Jaime apparently was the only Lannister fighting in this war, as a member of the Kingsguard. Tywin allowed Balon to destroy his fleet. I doubt that Robert would have allowed him to participate in the war afterwards...

Again, we have no idea what Tywin did during the war; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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Ned Stark was no Hand during a peace time, by the way. He was Hand during a time of crisis and instability.

First of all, there is a difference between "war" and "crisis" and Ned did not arrive with either.  Ned arrived at KL with about 7 years of peace and a stable realm, made only unstable by, well, Ned Stark’s blundering. Second, there were probablky hundreds of "crisis" that Tywin handled while Hand but Tywin handled them while Ned became overwhelmed by them.

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Tywin's management of the Defiance of Duskendale is not exceptional, either. What did Tywin do exactly? He encircled the city and sat on his ass. Ryman Frey did the same thing before the walls of Riverrun... Apparently Joffrey was right and the great Lord Tywin had indeed not the guts to face/defy Aerys. Else he would have stormed the city after Darklyn did not release Aerys immediately. Barristan Selmy saved Aerys, not Tywin.

Wait what should Tywin have done?  Put on a cape, grab a sword and fly into Duskendale to rescue Aerys?  In other words, a King "acts boldly," words that Tywin openly mocks because they are so ridiculous coming out of Joff’s mouth.  And here I would caution you- you are taking the side of Joff.  I’m just saying, that MAY be a sign that you are on the wrong side of this debate.

I like the wasy you minimize every action Tywin has done for decades by saying he “stumbled” or “sat on his ass” and then never realize that in those cases Tywin acted 100% correctly, prudently and effectively.   I mean in your world you want Tywin to ride on a blaze of glory and attack and fight and slash and slam.  But there is more to ruling than those things.  And, in fact, when it called for violence Tywin was pretty much an assassin in delivering effective force.  Castemere, the Red Wedding, Duskendale, Tarbeck Hall etc.  And add in the Sack of King’s Landing (a move that probably shortened the war by a year and saved countless lives) and the relief of Blackwater Bay and you have an impressive resume.   Again I don’t know what you want- you want Tywin to win all the battles but lose the war.  No, that’s Robb Stark.    

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And the deciding factor during the Battle of the Blackwater was Renly's Ghost, and he was entirely Littlefinger's idea.

No.  By this logic all that would need to happen would have been for one guy to ride out dressed as Renly and TA-DAH- battle won.  Nope.  Highgarden went with Tywin and Tywin lead the attack (Tyrion says as much in the books).   In order for that to happen, Tywin needs to meet with Highgarden (which he did) and in order for that to happen Highgarden needs to know that they can make a deal witH Tywin (which they did).

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And how did the Red Wedding not backfire on King Tommen? It's the very reason why half the North secretly plots stab the Lannister representatives in the North in the back.

That’s not backfiring; that’s what Tywin knew would be acceptable losses.  Having impoverished lords with wrecked households, deplete of fighting men, planning on stabbing you in the back is much better than having a large army actively fighting you on the battlefield.  With Winter coming the North was done.  Game. Set. Match.  Game over, man.  Game over.  After the Winter was over Tywin et al would help the North to their feet, exactly as he had commanded to Joff (who you seem to think has Tywin pegged… good luck with that).  The Bolton’s would institute hard justice in the North and Tywin would be there to meter out recovery.  It was a fantastic plan, and had Tyrion not gone soft oit would have worked.  Yes, Tywin would have had to deal with Stannis, but that’s another story- Stannis is a hard nut to crack.

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It's the reason why Manderly and others would back any pretender to the Iron Throne just for the chance of vengeance. The Red Wedding enabled Stannis to win the North to his cause!

Buit the alternative is to have Robb in open rebellion and winning battles hither and yon.  Again, the reality of Post-Red Wedding Westeros GREATLY favors the Lannisters; prior to the Red Wedding it was not.

Look, the Red Wedding worked.  It worrked so well that the North was utterly destroyed and the Boltons are the rulers of the North with ample help.  And the lrods you mention- who are they angry at?  Lannisters?  NOPE!  Mad at the Freys.  Another brilliant move, I may add.  Be mad at the Freys all you want; leave Tommen out of it.

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I never said Tywin was incompetent or and idiot, but he has his limits, and he did not oversee the Red Wedding or the Westerlings.

But he did.  In SoS, he mentions the plan, literally, in the very first Tyrion chapter.  At the end of CoK, Bolton et all know about Robb’s defiance and immediately set about contacting Tywin.   Tywin then brings together Frey, Bolton and Westerling.  How else do you think they got together on that?  Osmosis?  Each one KNOWS that Tywin Lannister will broker this reality and reward them all.  Which he does.

The reality is that Tywin Lannister ruled the Kingdom.  When he lost interest in a ruler or they pissed him off, they stopped Ruling (look at what happened to Aerys and Robert).  He fought wars, he defeated enemies and ruthlessly crushed usurpers and oputlaws.  In other words, he was the guy you wanted in charge.  Unless, of course, you want to lose.

[Mulled Wino]

Rockroi, on 25 April 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Just continuing the Tywin debate.




Well, nobody in this series really ever started from scratch so I am not sure what this really means.




First, this is irrelevant because your point was that Tywin had never commanded men in the field, not that he had never done so while Lord. And second, its, untrue.  “Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. Martin, George R.R. (2003-03-04). A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (p. 272). Bantam. Kindle Edition. In other words, they were HIS vassels, noyt his father's.

Later-



Martin, George R.R. (2003-03-04). A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (pp. 607-608). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

In other words Tywin acted against the Castemer’s etc after he became lord; Tytos would never have done somethinga s audacious as leveling the Tarbecks and Castemeres. And again, not sure what your point is if everyone agrees Tywin was the one who achieved this end.



Untrue.  Again, you ignore Tywin’s own advice to Joff that after a war you have to help a foe off his knees.  That’s worth remembering.  And the fact that there are no stories of great military victories of Tywin are 1) not true; Selmy states as much when remembering the Defiance at Tuskendale and 2) irrelevant.  Nobody ever remembers great military victories by Ned or Hoster Tully nor the Blackfish etc but they all have pretty in-tact reputations.  

And you are downplaying it because in the words of Jim Carey in "Liar Liar" "Its devestating to your case."



Again, how is that easy?  Ned totally blundered at ruling with peace and prosperity; Jon Arryn was a good Hand, but then you will recall he helped bankrupt the ream and could not handle an out-of-control Robert.



He always showed signs of madness; it was just accelerated after Duskendale.



Again, did not help Ned or Jon Arryn.  Did not help Jon Connington or the other Hands that followed after Tywin.


So was Tywin a great Hand because of his relationship with Aerys or in spite of it?  Did he rule the realm or not?  Because here you are trying to say that Tywin was great because he had a partnership with Aerys (again- fat ‘lotta good such partnerships did men like Connington and Stark) then try to saw Aerys was an abscentee King?  So which is it?  It sounds to me like Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms for 15 years.



So, the fact that it was a Lannister as Grand Maester; that Varys stayed on the counsel; that his son was left on the KG; that his daughter was queen; that his money owned the crown; that his men served in the watch and fought for the King- all meaningless?  Guess again.  The fact that Jon Arryn made Robert marry Cersei was proof of how much influence Tywin had over it all.  And with Robert’;s spending you could not have a Kingdom without Lannister Gold.



Again, we have no idea what Tywin did during the war; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.



First of all, there is a difference between "war" and "crisis" and Ned did not arrive with either.  Ned arrived at KL with about 7 years of peace and a stable realm, made only unstable by, well, Ned Stark’s blundering. Second, there were probablky hundreds of "crisis" that Tywin handled while Hand but Tywin handled them while Ned became overwhelmed by them.



Wait what should Tywin have done?  Put on a cape, grab a sword and fly into Duskendale to rescue Aerys?  In other words, a King "acts boldly," words that Tywin openly mocks because they are so ridiculous coming out of Joff’s mouth.  And here I would caution you- you are taking the side of Joff.  I’m just saying, that MAY be a sign that you are on the wrong side of this debate.

I like the wasy you minimize every action Tywin has done for decades by saying he “stumbled” or “sat on his ass” and then never realize that in those cases Tywin acted 100% correctly, prudently and effectively.   I mean in your world you want Tywin to ride on a blaze of glory and attack and fight and slash and slam.  But there is more to ruling than those things.  And, in fact, when it called for violence Tywin was pretty much an assassin in delivering effective force.  Castemere, the Red Wedding, Duskendale, Tarbeck Hall etc.  And add in the Sack of King’s Landing (a move that probably shortened the war by a year and saved countless lives) and the relief of Blackwater Bay and you have an impressive resume.   Again I don’t know what you want- you want Tywin to win all the battles but lose the war.  No, that’s Robb Stark.



No.  By this logic all that would need to happen would have been for one guy to ride out dressed as Renly and TA-DAH- battle won.  Nope.  Highgarden went with Tywin and Tywin lead the attack (Tyrion says as much in the books).   In order for that to happen, Tywin needs to meet with Highgarden (which he did) and in order for that to happen Highgarden needs to know that they can make a deal witH Tywin (which they did).



That’s not backfiring; that’s what Tywin knew would be acceptable losses.  Having impoverished lords with wrecked households, deplete of fighting men, planning on stabbing you in the back is much better than having a large army actively fighting you on the battlefield.  With Winter coming the North was done.  Game. Set. Match.  Game over, man.  Game over.  After the Winter was over Tywin et al would help the North to their feet, exactly as he had commanded to Joff (who you seem to think has Tywin pegged… good luck with that).  The Bolton’s would institute hard justice in the North and Tywin would be there to meter out recovery.  It was a fantastic plan, and had Tyrion not gone soft oit would have worked.  Yes, Tywin would have had to deal with Stannis, but that’s another story- Stannis is a hard nut to crack.



Buit the alternative is to have Robb in open rebellion and winning battles hither and yon.  Again, the reality of Post-Red Wedding Westeros GREATLY favors the Lannisters; prior to the Red Wedding it was not.

Look, the Red Wedding worked.  It worrked so well that the North was utterly destroyed and the Boltons are the rulers of the North with ample help.  And the lrods you mention- who are they angry at?  Lannisters?  NOPE!  Mad at the Freys.  Another brilliant move, I may add.  Be mad at the Freys all you want; leave Tommen out of it.



But he did.  In SoS, he mentions the plan, literally, in the very first Tyrion chapter.  At the end of CoK, Bolton et all know about Robb’s defiance and immediately set about contacting Tywin.   Tywin then brings together Frey, Bolton and Westerling.  How else do you think they got together on that?  Osmosis?  Each one KNOWS that Tywin Lannister will broker this reality and reward them all.  Which he does.

The reality is that Tywin Lannister ruled the Kingdom.  When he lost interest in a ruler or they pissed him off, they stopped Ruling (look at what happened to Aerys and Robert).  He fought wars, he defeated enemies and ruthlessly crushed usurpers and oputlaws.  In other words, he was the guy you wanted in charge.  Unless, of course, you want to lose.

This is a pretty devastating Tywin-esque reply.

The two most ridiculous anti-Tywin rants:

1) While he was Hand the realm was peaceful and prosperous, so that doesn't really count.

2) There were no great military victories mentioned in the books so he must not have any.  How the hell else did Tywin get his rep?  I don't recall his rep being just that he was mean and I'm pretty sure he needed some military help to exterminate another great house.

[Morrigan]

Did someone say "how is Tywin a douche"? Really? Really? Nevermind the Red Wedding, what about the wholesale slaughter of smallfolk by Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch (directly at Tywin's orders)? What about his shitty treatment of Tyrion in general (blaming him for his mother's death, for fuck's sake)? What about the Tysha episode? What about the fact that he raised a daughter like Cersei who in turn raised a son like Joffrey? What about his extreme hypocrisy about Shae? Of course he's a douche. He's a capable ruler and a wealthy and powerful and ruthless lord, but, to quote TV-Tyrion, "He's always been a cunt."

By the way, if he's so smart and clever, how could he be so blind as to the fact that his twin children are sleeping together? Even Kevan realized it. True, we don't know for a certainty that Tywin didn't know (Tyrion seems to think he didn't, and he certainly gave no indication that he did), but if he did know, that's even worse because his daughter was married to the king, and he'd know that her sleeping around with her brother would lead to disaster eventually.

My point is, Tywin was strong and powerful but he was still very much flawed. His children were his blind spot.


-- That said, back on topic: Charles Dance is so awesome that he makes Tywin likeable. He turned Tywin from Complete Monster into Magnificent Bastard, hah.

Edited by Morrigan, 25 April 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[Rockroi]

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Nevermind the Red Wedding, what about the wholesale slaughter of smallfolk by Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch (directly at Tywin's orders)?

I'll do what you did: quote Tyrion Lannister, "I believe they call that war."  Done and done.

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My point is, Tywin was strong and powerful but he was still very much flawed. His children were his blind spot.

Every character is flawed; that's the whole point.  Nobody ever claimed Tywin was perfect or Christ made whole.  His chidlren WERE his blind spot.  That seems fair because many of these people have shitty children or grandchildren (in your case you blame Tywin for Joff which is incredible; does that mean we should blame Egg for Aerys?).  Ned Stark had fucking Arya for Christ sake and she's a killing machine.  Does that make Ned a bad parent?  Randall Tarly gave the world Samwell, does that make him a good one?  Aerys gave the world Dany and Viserys?  Is he 50/50?

Look, being a good ruler and being a swell guy are different things.

Tywin is not a guy you would want as a father.  Fair point.
Tywin is a guy you would want as your lord.  Better point.
Tywin is a guy you would never want as an enemy.  Ultimate point.

[Mulled Wino]

Morrigan, on 25 April 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Did someone say "how is Tywin a douche"? Really? Really? Nevermind the Red Wedding, what about the wholesale slaughter of smallfolk by Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch (directly at Tywin's orders)? What about his shitty treatment of Tyrion in general (blaming him for his mother's death, for fuck's sake)? What about the Tysha episode? What about the fact that he raised a daughter like Cersei who in turn raised a son like Joffrey? What about his extreme hypocrisy about Shae? Of course he's a douche. He's a capable ruler and a wealthy and powerful and ruthless lord, but, to quote TV-Tyrion, "He's always been a cunt."

By the way, if he's so smart and clever, how could he be so blind as to the fact that his twin children are sleeping together? Even Kevan realized it. True, we don't know for a certainty that Tywin didn't know (Tyrion seems to think he didn't, and he certainly gave no indication that he did), but if he did know, that's even worse because his daughter was married to the king, and he'd know that her sleeping around with her brother would lead to disaster eventually.

My point is, Tywin was strong and powerful but he was still very much flawed. His children were his blind spot.


-- That said, back on topic: Charles Dance is so awesome that he makes Tywin likeable. He turned Tywin from Complete Monster into Magnificent Bastard, hah.

No one really knew until later, and I'm sure tywin figured it out.  he was working on ways to combat the rumor.  Eitehr way, it doesn't matter if he knew or not, he had to do damage control.  He was actively seeking ways to prove it otherwise, which is more than the other Lannisters who you seem to think were so much smarter than him were doing.

[7V3N]

Dance is outstanding. No more to say on that.

I always found Tywin to be a respectable character in the books if I ignored what I knew about him through Tyrion. I don't think anybody likes Tywin, they respect him. They don't say, "I could see myself having enjoyable conversations with this guy," they say, "I could see myself following him into battle," or something like that. It is his poise--it demands respect and he gets it. He is a leader and a damn good one. He can also avoid blame by having a wild bannerman like Gregor Clegane who everyone just accepts as a loose cannon. That is why so many people follow the Lannisters. It certainly isn't because of Cersei and we know how the Lannisters were thought of before Tywin. So people say they "like" the TV Tywin--I think they can separate Tyrion's thoughts since the show does not have limiting POV like the books.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 25 April 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[The hairy bear]

Rockroi, on 25 April 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Tywin is not a guy you would want as a father.  Fair point.
Tywin is a guy you would want as your lord.  Better point.
Tywin is a guy you would never want as an enemy.  Ultimate point.

I agree with you with 1 and 3, but I'm not so sure about 2. I don't think the common folk and the nobles from the West can look back at Tywin's rule and feel satisfied. Just to defend "the honor" of the Lannisters he has involved the whole West in a costly war that has decimated its population and drained its resources. Thousands of combatants died, the Northern army brought war to their lands, their cattle was stolen,... and all of this because Tywin believed that sending a band of sadistic murderers to ravage their neighbors was a proportionate response to having his son arrested.

Tywin is too proud for his own good... and specially for the good the people he rules.

Edited by The hairy bear, 26 April 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[David Selig]

Not to mention that Tywin tolerated having people like Gregor Clegane as his bannermen and allowed them to do pretty much whatever they wanted. Imagine living under Gregor's rule. He was probably killing his subjects for fun when he got bored. He killed his two wives, his father and his sister  but of course Tywin did nothing because Gregor was a useful monster.

Edited by David Selig, 25 April 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Lothar Imbel]

Fuck yes.  I actually cheered when he rode in, the blonde git.

[Independent George]

I liked Tywin even in the books, but yes, Charles Dance is even more awesome than I could have ever hoped.

[Morrigan]

Rockroi, on 25 April 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'll do what you did: quote Tyrion Lannister, "I believe they call that war."  Done and done.

....Aaaaand "it's war" makes the wholesale raping, burning and slaughtering of helpless peasants OK? WTF is wrong with you?

Remember, we're not debating on whether it's a useful war tactic to demoralize the enemy, but whether or not Tywin is a "douche".

(Also, you quoted Tyrion out of context. He expresses a lack of surprise at Gregor's work, not approval.)

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That seems fair because many of these people have shitty children or grandchildren (in your case you blame Tywin for Joff which is incredible; does that mean we should blame Egg for Aerys?).

Of course not. Also you're quoting me out of context (you seem good at that). I don't blame Tywin directly for Joffrey, I blame him for Cersei, and indirectly for Joffrey. Egg wasn't around Aerys, ever, but Tywin was around Joffrey for a bit and even he failed to curb the little shit. I'm not saying he's the most responsible for Joffrey, obviously, that's Robert and Cersei's fault for failing as parents, but his egotistical pride and ruthlessness are certainly values he transmitted to Cersei (his influence on her is all over her POV chapters), which in turn she transmitted to Joffrey.

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Tywin is a guy you would want as your lord.  Better point.

Yeah? Tell that to the folks living near Clegane's Keep...

David Selig, on 25 April 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Not to mention that Tywin tolerated having people like Gregor Clegane as his bannermen and allowed them to do pretty much whatever they wanted. Imagine living under Gregor's rule. He was probably killing his subjects for fun when he got bored. He killed his two wives, his father and his sister  but of course Tywin did nothing because Gregor was a useful monster.

This.

[Rockroi]

Morrigan, on 25 April 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

....Aaaaand "it's war" makes the wholesale raping, burning and slaughtering of helpless peasants OK? WTF is wrong with you?

Uh, nothing I am just explaining that in war bad shit happens.  Or did you think Robb Stark attacked his enemies with kisses and rainbows?

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Remember, we're not debating on whether it's a useful war tactic to demoralize the enemy, but whether or not Tywin is a "douche".

I had thought we were debating Tywin as a whole; you keep using the word "douche."

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(Also, you quoted Tyrion out of context. He expresses a lack of surprise at Gregor's work, not approval.)

I did no such thing, actually.

“A lordling down from the Trident, says your father’s men burned his keep, raped his wife, and killed all his peasants.”
“I believe they call that war.” Tyrion smelled Gregor Clegane’s work, or that of Ser Amory Lorch or his father’s other pet hellhound, the Qohorik.

Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones/A Clash of Kings (Kindle Locations 17629-17632). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

In other words he is alittle put off that this lordling would want Joff for recompence.  After all.. its war.  That was the context, that was my meaning, that was what Tywin's men were doing.  Its war.

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Of course not. Also you're quoting me out of context (you seem good at that). I don't blame Tywin directly for Joffrey, I blame him for Cersei, and indirectly for Joffrey.

Arya has killed 3 people by the end of CoK and ordered the death of many others.  Is she a bad person and if so why don't you blame Ned?  Because, you will say, there were other circumstances that made Arya what she became.  I say the same exact thing for Tywin; all of Cersei's problems cannot be laid at Tywin's feet.  Other things were going on.

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Egg wasn't around Aerys, ever, but Tywin was around Joffrey for a bit and even he failed to curb the little shit. I'm not saying he's the most responsible for Joffrey, obviously, that's Robert and Cersei's fault for failing as parents, but his egotistical pride and ruthlessness are certainly values he transmitted to Cersei (his influence on her is all over her POV chapters), which in turn she transmitted to Joffrey.

And where is your evidence that Tywin Lannister was around KIng's Landing and raising Joff?

So, wait- Tywin should be blamed for what then?  Being a proud guy?  Being effective?  And this translated onto Joff?  Through.... what? Osmosis?  I think its clear in many of the discussions Joff had with Tywin that Joff emulatyes Tywin NOT AT ALL!  Hmmm... and does that mean Tywin was a GOOD grandfather because Tommen turned out okay?  Your theory seems to be based on the following idea: Tywin is a bad person, therefore he must be blammed for all bad things that others flowing from his body did, one way or another.  Tyrion is an amazing Hand and an incredible player- Tywin's doing?  And if not, who's?  Does that mean Tywin is a good parent because Tyrion killed Tywin who was a bad man?  Now you have me truly confused.

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Yeah? Tell that to the folks living near Clegane's Keep...

By this logic Ned Stark is a war criminal for allowing Roose and Ramsey Bolton to exist at the Dreadfort, right?  But, alas, you like Ned so no, Ned is a good Lord and Bolton exists and Tywin is a bad man because Clegane exists.... curiouser and curiouser...

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Not to mention that Tywin Ned and Robb Stark tolerated having people like Gregor Clegane Roose Bolton as his bannermen and allowed them to do pretty much whatever they wanted. Imagine living under Gregor Bolton's/Ramsey's rule. He was probably killing his subjects for fun when he got bored. ...  but of course Tywin Ned and Robb did nothing because Gregor Roose was a useful monster.

I fixed "This" for you.  No need to thank me.

Edited by Rockroi, 25 April 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Envie]

Most of us love Tywin in the same respects we loved Darth Vader - there's a certain kind of ominous authority that comes with being so able to command fear with just a gesture or force choke hold.

I think the actor they chose for Tywin's role is doing an absolutely fantastic job of portraying the personality of a very commanding and successful Patriarch from the books. No, he wasn't 'good' or 'bad' but no one truly is in this story, which is why its so compelling and real.

[Raksha the Demon]

Morrigan, on 25 April 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Did someone say "how is Tywin a douche"? Really? Really? Nevermind the Red Wedding, what about the wholesale slaughter of smallfolk by Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch (directly at Tywin's orders)? What about his shitty treatment of Tyrion in general (blaming him for his mother's death, for fuck's sake)? What about the Tysha episode? What about the fact that he raised a daughter like Cersei who in turn raised a son like Joffrey? What about his extreme hypocrisy about Shae? Of course he's a douche. He's a capable ruler and a wealthy and powerful and ruthless lord, but, to quote TV-Tyrion, "He's always been a cunt."

By the way, if he's so smart and clever, how could he be so blind as to the fact that his twin children are sleeping together? Even Kevan realized it. True, we don't know for a certainty that Tywin didn't know (Tyrion seems to think he didn't, and he certainly gave no indication that he did), but if he did know, that's even worse because his daughter was married to the king, and he'd know that her sleeping around with her brother would lead to disaster eventually.

My point is, Tywin was strong and powerful but he was still very much flawed. His children were his blind spot.


-- That said, back on topic: Charles Dance is so awesome that he makes Tywin likeable. He turned Tywin from Complete Monster into Magnificent Bastard, hah.

Charles Dance was a wonderful choice to portray Tywin Lannister; I can't think of anyone else who I'd have wanted to play the character, and he is doing a great job.  If you want to see Dance being even more nasty, watch Bleak House; I think he barely raised his voice, but the actor knows how to convey menace.  

Charles Dance's incarnation of Tywin might seem more magnificent and less monstrous to people who have not read the books, who have not seen what he is willing to do for the glory of House Lannister - including ordering the slaughter of innocent women and children (Duskendale, and the young children of Prince Rhaegar, and the 'collateral damage' of Princess Elia's rape and murder - can't believe that Tywin did not intend for her to die too, if he had wanted her kept alive, he would have ordered it and it's doubtful that even Gregor Clegane would have disobeyed him).

I could see Tywin choosing Arya to be his cupbearer.  He might not have brought a cupbearer along; and it would have pleased him to have a cupbearer who was distinctive (a girl) and had showed herself to be intelligent and resourceful.  I doubt he would care at all about her beyond her usefulness as a servant for a relatively brief time.

[David Selig]

Rockroi, on 25 April 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

By this logic Ned Stark is a war criminal for allowing Roose and Ramsey Bolton to exist at the Dreadfort, right?  But, alas, you like Ned so no, Ned is a good Lord and Bolton exists and Tywin is a bad man because Clegane exists.... curiouser and curiouser...

I fixed "This" for you.  No need to thank me.

Oh, come on, it's not the same thing at all. Roose is smart enough to keep his brutality hidden from Ned, and Ramsay wasn't on the scene before Ned went south. On the other hand, gregor's crimes are so well known even ned living thousand miles away have heard about hem. And Rodrick, the Stark appointed castellan, actually arrested Ramsay when he got a report of a crime he committed, which obviously didn't happen with Gregor. Neither Robb nor Ned took the Boltons to war with the specific goal of using them for war atrocities and encouraging them to become even bigger monsters, as Tywin did with Gregor, Amory, and his other butchers.

But that it's all beside the main point anyway. Just because others might have allowed their bannermen to commit atrocities on their subjects doesn't make Tywin a good Lord.

[Morrigan]

Rockroi, on 25 April 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Uh, nothing I am just explaining that in war bad shit happens.  Or did you think Robb Stark attacked his enemies with kisses and rainbows?

*facepalm* What does this have to do with anything?

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I had thought we were debating Tywin as a whole; you keep using the word "douche."

Uh what. My original post opened with this:

Did someone say "how is Tywin a douche"? Really? Really?

Clearly I'm arguing this point, and not Tywin as a whole. Learn to internet read.

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In other words he is alittle put off that this lordling would want Joff for recompence.  After all.. its war.  That was the context, that was my meaning, that was what Tywin's men were doing.  Its war.

It doesn't make any less douchey so you have no point. Also, of course Tyrion thinks it's unlikely that Joff would compensate an enemy lord. But all of that is besides the point.

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Arya has killed 3 people by the end of CoK and ordered the death of many others.  Is she a bad person and if so why don't you blame Ned?  Because, you will say, there were other circumstances that made Arya what she became.  I say the same exact thing for Tywin; all of Cersei's problems cannot be laid at Tywin's feet.  Other things were going on.

What other things were going on that made Joffrey a monster, beyond Cersei raising him to be a spoiled, proud, entitled little shit?
As for Cersei, she murdered her childhood friend when she was still a girl, so... *shrugs*

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And where is your evidence that Tywin Lannister was around KIng's Landing and raising Joff?

That's not what I said.  Learn to internet read.

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So, wait- Tywin should be blamed for what then?  Being a proud guy?  Being effective?  And this translated onto Joff?  Through.... what? Osmosis?  I think its clear in many of the discussions Joff had with Tywin that Joff emulatyes Tywin NOT AT ALL!  Hmmm... and does that mean Tywin was a GOOD grandfather because Tommen turned out okay?  Your theory seems to be based on the following idea: Tywin is a bad person, therefore he must be blammed for all bad things that others flowing from his body did, one way or another.  Tyrion is an amazing Hand and an incredible player- Tywin's doing?  And if not, who's?  Does that mean Tywin is a good parent because Tyrion killed Tywin who was a bad man?  Now you have me truly confused.

Indeed, you're very confused, and are starting to address things I never said. I suggest you re-read what I said and try applying something called comprehension.

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By this logic Ned Stark is a war criminal for allowing Roose and Ramsey Bolton to exist at the Dreadfort, right?  But, alas, you like Ned so no, Ned is a good Lord and Bolton exists and Tywin is a bad man because Clegane exists.... curiouser and curiouser...

Bahaha, this is gold. Not only it's a classic case of tu quoque fallacious reasoning, but yes, the comparison is so apt because if Ned had been aware of Ramsey's crimes, he would have done nothing about it... and in fact, once Ramsey's crimes became known, Ser Rodrik Cassel (in charge of Winterfell at the time) totally encouraged him and let him continue his atrocities without retribution...   Yeah, I'm done talking to you.

Edited by Morrigan, 25 April 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[7V3N]

Morrigan, on 25 April 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

....Aaaaand "it's war" makes the wholesale raping, burning and slaughtering of helpless peasants OK? WTF is wrong with you?

Did you not read AFFC? I don't know if GRRM could have emphasized the destruction made by each faction any more. Wolves, lions, crackens, no matter. They all hurt the commoners. Jorah also emphasized this. War is never good--especially for those who already live simple lives and depend on livestock, crops, etc.

If you want to use this against Tywin, use it against Robb as well. When invading enemy lands, the soldiers take their rewards (women, gold, shelter, etc.)

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 25 April 2012 - 06:14 PM.