17 replies to this topic

[MaJose]

So I'm new here and I was wondering if anyone could help me with some doubts I have about the red wedding, cause I'm not that good with all the plotting and conspiring that goes on in Westeros.

First of, who's the guy who kills Robb? I know he's a Bolton soldier but I read somewhere (wikipedia I think) that it was Roose Bolton himself. So I re-read the chapter and It doesn't say that it was specifically him, but I'm not sure if I'm suppose to assume it's him or just some random Bolton soldier like I originally thought.
Then the guy says "Jamie Lannister sends his regards". Jamie wasn't involve in RW because during it's planning he was a prisoner at Riverrun and during it's execution he was somewhere with Brienne. I always thought that line was a message from Tywin to mean he was taking revenge for the imprisonment of Jamie. Is that right or am I totally missing something else?

And finally, what was the involvement of the Westerlings in it? From Jamie's conversation with Sybell is very clear she was part of it, but was Jeyne a willing participant or was she just used by her mother?
And so the planning of the red wedding, and please correct me if I'm not getting this, would be:
1) Tywin schemes with the Westerlings (or just Sybell) to plant Jeyne and have Robb fall in love with her so he would break his vows to the Freys.
2) And then contact the Freys and Bolton (pretending he didn't had anything to do with Robb's marriage) and convince them to do all the killing.
This is a hell of a lot of planning for Tywin.

Sorry If I seem too slow and dense at getting all the back-stabbing and conniving that happens in the books. Lets just say that if I lived in Westeros I'd get killed sooner than Ned.

[The Smiling Eye]

Jaime tells Roose Bolton to "send his regards to Robb", that's why he says it to him, before finishing him off.

[Apple Martini]

I believe we're meant to infer that Roose Bolton himself killed Robb, yes. As for the snarky remark, you're correct that Jaime himself was not responsible for the Red Wedding. Exactly why Roose said it, I don't know. But UnCat seems to have taken it at face value and apparently believes that Jaime was in fact involved.

As for the Westerlings and their involvement, people still disagree about it. Some think they were in on it from the beginning, some think they turned tail a little later, some think that Sybell was lying to Jaime, etc. So ... pick which one makes the most sense to you.

Edited by Apple Martini, 23 April 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Tywin didn't really have to do all of the planning.  Most of it was done for him.  The Westerlings probably saw an opening or maybe saw a possible future (Sybil Spicer is an ancestor to Maggy the Frog) and offered to play their part.  The Freys did all the Red Wedding planning themselves because they were slighted.  I don't even Tywin realized it would work out that way.  Bolton is married to Fat Walda, one of Old Walder's grand daughters so she was likely passing on information to Bolton about the plans.  Bolton saw his opening and made a deal with Tywin to get a fake Arya, legitimise his son and become Warden of the North in exchange for bringing the North back into the realm.  All the while, Tywin sat back and let things other people planned fall into place.  Tywin screwed up though because he sort of slighted the Westerlings by offering them a bastard daughter in marriage for all their troubles.

You aren't dense.  I didn't get that it was Roose at first who killed Robb.  I was so confused.  I didn't fully understand a lot of the trickier scenes until I went back and reread certain parts.  Rereading the books offers the most rewards because you already know what will happen so you can focus more on the small details.

[LuisDantas]

It is all but certain that Robb's death happened at the hands of Roose Bolton, yes.

He left the scene minutes prior, and the killer used Bolton colors.

But who else would have such words to say (they come from Chapter 44 of ASOS, Jaime VI)?  Who else would wear Bolton colors at the Red Wedding after dealing with Jaime Lannister closely enough to have a message from him?

http://awoiaf.wester...ords-Chapter_44

[James Arryn]

LuisDantas, on 23 April 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

But who else would have such words to say (they come from Chapter 44 of ASOS, Jaime VI)?  Who else would wear Bolton colors at the Red Wedding after dealing with Jaime Lannister closely enough to have a message from him?

http://awoiaf.wester...ords-Chapter_44

In 'real life' I could easily see it happening without any direct connection.

People say all kinds of things when they're killing someone*...often as a means of demonizing or dehumanizing the victim. So inventing empathy for a former (perceived) victim of your victim wouldn't be at all odd.

In the context of the book, though, I agree it probably needs a 'real' connection.

Edit: if you don't 'understand' my usage of semi-quotations in this post, I am 100% with you.


*like I'm an authority on the subject.

Edited by James Arryn, 23 April 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[IronSuitor]

I had always assumed that in was definitely Roose and that leaving Robb's murderer's identity unknown was just Martin's way to refer back to a prior chapter in a cool way. Sort of flexing his writing muscles.

[Slychd]

Jamie told Roose to send his regards to Robb Stark at Harrenhal, it happens in ASOS Jamie V.

[Josephxoxo]

I don't think that anyone could foresee Robb getting injured which led to the romance, it's too risky and she seemed geniunely upset when Robb died.

[Lord Damian]

Robb's situation leading up to the Red Wedding were a "perfect storm" of events that made him ripe for the pickin

[Blackhaven]

Lord Damian, on 23 April 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

Robb's situation leading up to the Red Wedding were a "perfect storm" of events that made him ripe for the pickin

I fully agree

Josephxoxo, on 23 April 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

I don't think that anyone could foresee Robb getting injured which led to the romance, it's too risky and she seemed geniunely upset when Robb died.

Nor could they foresee Theon's sneak attack on Winterfel and how it led to Robb's belief about the fates of Bran and Rickon.  He was in an intense emotional state when he made the decisions that led to the RW.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Considering that Jeyne Westerling's older brother Reynald is one of the victims of the Red Wedding (Robb's new squire, he gets severely wounded while setting Grey Wind free and is currently MIA Presumed Dead) it seems safe to infer that most of the Westerlings were not in on the plotting, and even Jeyne's mom Sybil Spicer only knew as little as Tywin thought she needed to know to serve her function.  Otherwise she would've pulled her only boy back and/or they would've crafted some excuse to have him "protect his sister" while Robb went to the twins.

Whether Sybil improvised after Robb and Jeyne slept together in a desperate attempt to avoid the Curse Of Tywin Lannister, or whether Tywin and Sybil had a discussion similar to Quorin Halfhand's last orders to Jon ("Go over to them.  Turn on me.  Defect.  Get into their good graces and take 'em down from within") is entirely speculation on our part.  Jeyne -- and Reynald, as mentioned above -- did seem to become legitimately attached to Robb, but then Robb was rather charismatic and tended to have that effect on people, even people who didn't start out "on his side".

And yes, the "Jamie Lannister sends his regards" line is meant to identify Roose Bolton as the man who personally killed Robb even though things are hectic and the POV -- Catelyn -- isn't able to identify him for us in the chaos of the situation.

[MaJose]

I had completely forgotten about Jamie telling Roose Bolton to send Robb his regards while they where in Harrenhal!   I have a really crappy memory and sometimes I have to go back and re-read stuff.
Thank you all for reminding me about it. Well that makes everything a lot clearer.

Ok, so the Westerlings weren't on it from the start, but Sybell did had some kind of understanding with Tywin right? making sure that Jeyne wasn't pregnant. I'm assuming that's why they got pardon so quickly and were granted Castemere and marriages to other Lannisters.

[James Arryn]

Sweet-N-SourRobin, on 24 April 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

Considering that Jeyne Westerling's older brother Reynald is one of the victims of the Red Wedding (Robb's new squire, he gets severely wounded while setting Grey Wind free and is currently MIA Presumed Dead) it seems safe to infer that most of the Westerlings were not in on the plotting, and even Jeyne's mom Sybil Spicer only knew as little as Tywin thought she needed to know to serve her function.  Otherwise she would've pulled her only boy back and/or they would've crafted some excuse to have him "protect his sister" while Robb went to the twins.

Whether Sybil improvised after Robb and Jeyne slept together in a desperate attempt to avoid the Curse Of Tywin Lannister, or whether Tywin and Sybil had a discussion similar to Quorin Halfhand's last orders to Jon ("Go over to them.  Turn on me.  Defect.  Get into their good graces and take 'em down from within") is entirely speculation on our part.  Jeyne -- and Reynald, as mentioned above -- did seem to become legitimately attached to Robb, but then Robb was rather charismatic and tended to have that effect on people, even people who didn't start out "on his side".

And yes, the "Jamie Lannister sends his regards" line is meant to identify Roose Bolton as the man who personally killed Robb even though things are hectic and the POV -- Catelyn -- isn't able to identify him for us in the chaos of the situation.

Loved all this except for the last paragraph, which is kinda tautological.

But that aside, especially your first point, brilliant and informative.

Cheers.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Jeyne didnt know anything but supposedly her mother plotted alongside Tywin to betray Robb in order to improve the Westerling's station in Westeros (they werent considered wealthy).  Her mother even states to Jamie that she made sure there would be child of Robb & Jeyne's union by giving her daughter a potion against fertility. She brokered matches for Jeyne & several of her other children to Lannister matches. all this is on Jeyne's character page as well.  http://awoiaf.wester...eyne_Westerling So I doubt Jeyne was a plant.
(theres also a theory that Jeyne is indeed pregnant & was smuggled out of Riverrun before its siege was lifted).

& if I remember right, the eldest of Jeyne's brothers is killed/mia during the wedding, so I doubt her mother was as well informed as she thought.

[Apple Martini]

MaJose, on 24 April 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

Ok, so the Westerlings weren't on it from the start, but Sybell did had some kind of understanding with Tywin right? making sure that Jeyne wasn't pregnant. I'm assuming that's why they got pardon so quickly and were granted Castemere and marriages to other Lannisters.

We still don't know for sure. Sybell told Jaime that she was giving Jeyne moon tea, but the only evidence is her word (and by then Tywin was dead). There's a not-unsubstantial following who think that Jeyne escaped Riverrun with the Blackfish and that the girl Jaime sees is not Jeyne (unless her hips can magically change shape).

[eyeheartsansa]

Interstingly, there's a scene where Jeyne tells Cat that her mother is giving her something she takes daily to boost her fertility.

[ServantOnIce]

I'm Done with Dancing For the Nonce . ...