91 replies to this topic

[EgoistMusketeer]

I really think Aegon was murdered by Gregor Clegane.
I think Varys took advantage of the baby being dashed against the wall to claim he had switched them.
Otherwise how would Varys know how the mountain would have dealt with the baby? He could have stabbed him and left his face and head intact and then what? Babies are all similar looking but they targ eyes and some hair?

[Sevumar]

James Arryn, on 23 April 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Yeah, that's also true. Although I think she's shown enough wisdom to distinguish between complicit deception and not. I also don't think she;d necessarily feel the deception was aimed at her, especially if she hears of Plan A, and how/why it was thwarted.

I hope she'd have the maturity to take the long view on this issue. Aegon's been as much of a pawn as Illyrio expected Dany to be. But Dany has a tendency to be very hot-tempered and to act irrationally and destructively when angry. Her experiences in Meereen seem to have shown that she has not managed to improve in this regard.

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Also, and this is where I am different from most people, I don't get the sense that Dany lusts after the Iron Throne as an exclusive right, for its own sake. I think a lot of the reasons she 'wants' it are those she would willingly share with a 'worthy' relative, and by worthy I basically mean dragon-friendly.

I don't think it's an obsession in the way that some other characters seem to view the throne, but from about 2/3 of the way through AGoT, it has been the her central goal and the main motivation for her actions. She does seem to hold the belief that the throne is hers by "right," without having considered that a defeated dynasty no longer has a right to the throne. If Aegon managed to become a dragonrider, I could see a possibility that she'd share power, but she'd never agree to be someone's trophy queen again.

Gurkhal, on 24 April 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Well I would assume that Connington knew Rhaegar's children and that he probably would've been able to tell the difference. I don't remember for how long Connington has been together with Aegon but I would assume its since early years. I'm not buying that he wouldn't have suspected anything.

I don't think Connington would have seen baby Aegon often enough to know what he'd look like several years later when they were "reunited."

[Gurkhal]

James Arryn, on 24 April 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

You didn't comment on the important part of my post.

Well I'm happy for you that you are a hot guy.

[James Arryn]

Gurkhal, on 24 April 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Well I'm happy for you that you are a hot guy.

Oh, thanks, but I meant the fact that my mom and I are finally speaking again, after years of bitter strife over how hot I am.

[Jem]

EgoistMusketeer, on 24 April 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

I really think Aegon was murdered by Gregor Clegane.
I think Varys took advantage of the baby being dashed against the wall to claim he had switched them.
Otherwise how would Varys know how the mountain would have dealt with the baby? He could have stabbed him and left his face and head intact and then what? Babies are all similar looking but they targ eyes and some hair?

The baby's face could have been mutilated post-mortem, either by Varys or one of his little helpers. We don't really know the fine details about exactly what happened during the Sack, so a lot of things are still possible.

[James Arryn]

Sevumar, on 24 April 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

I hope she'd have the maturity to take the long view on this issue. Aegon's been as much of a pawn as Illyrio expected Dany to be. But Dany has a tendency to be very hot-tempered and to act irrationally and destructively when angry. Her experiences in Meereen seem to have shown that she has not managed to improve in this regard.

You're probably right. Lately her bad moves have seemed kinda pre-meditated to me...if I look back I'm Lost, season 4, etc.

(I've never watched Lost, am hoping season 4 exists/was bad.)

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I don't think it's an obsession in the way that some other characters seem to view the throne, but from about 2/3 of the way through AGoT, it has been the her central goal and the main motivation for her actions.

Agreed, but the 1/3 is also significant.

IE, when she thought someone else was worthy of carrying the mantle. I think seeing Vis as invalid was as significant to her as seeing herself as valid.

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She does seem to hold the belief that the throne is hers by "right," without having considered that a defeated dynasty no longer has a right to the throne. If Aegon managed to become a dragonrider, I could see a possibility that she'd share power, but she'd never agree to be someone's trophy queen again.

I don't think trophy queen is the only option, though...and I also would point out that her present belief is firmly grounded upon the premise that she is the last of the dragons.

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I don't think Connington would have seen baby Aegon often enough to know what he'd look like several years later when they were "reunited."

Yeah, although I'm also unclear as to the exact timeline.

[Longspear Ryk]

If you dont read the dunk and egg novels... Aegon being a blackfyre is fkn retarded...

You hear little to nothing in the regular books

[Sevumar]

James Arryn, on 24 April 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Agreed, but the 1/3 is also significant.

IE, when she thought someone else was worthy of carrying the mantle. I think seeing Vis as invalid was as significant to her as seeing herself as valid.

I don't think trophy queen is the only option, though...and I also would point out that her present belief is firmly grounded upon the premise that she is the last of the dragons.

I always saw her support of Viserys as the result of being young, naive, and never having another source of information. I think she supported Viserys because he came before her in the line of succession and because he was the only teacher she had. Given what she's been through since his death, I don't think she's ever going to give the banner to someone else completely. She may agree to be a co-ruler, which is what I was basically getting at (and that would blaze some interesting new feudal territory in Westeros).

[James Arryn]

Sevumar, on 24 April 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

I always saw her support of Viserys as the result of being young, naive, and never having another source of information. I think she supported Viserys because he came before her in the line of succession and because he was the only teacher she had. Given what she's been through since his death, I don't think she's ever going to give the banner to someone else completely. She may agree to be a co-ruler, which is what I was basically getting at (and that would blaze some interesting new feudal territory in Westeros).

Well, I guess we're seeing different things, to a degree. To me a lot of emphasis was put on her layers of disillusionment with her brother, and his failing the final test seemed to be her moment of dragonbirth (her flood, his fire).

[Blue-eyed Onion]

A question; what skin and hair color was Elia of Dorne? was she similar looking to her brother Oberyn? if so, barring some blunder on the part of the author, and given that whole deal with Roberts bastards (westeros realistic genetics) then this Aegon is not the real Aegon.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 April 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

A question; what skin and hair color was Elia of Dorne? was she similar looking to her brother Oberyn? if so, barring some blunder on the part of the author, and given that whole deal with Roberts bastards (westeros realistic genetics) then this Aegon is not the real Aegon.

She was similar looking to Oberyn, but the Martells have Targaryen ancestors (Daenerys who had the Water Gardens built), and baby Aegon had silver hair.

[Ser Wun Wun]

James Arryn, on 23 April 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I haven't completely given up on my completely unsupportable Edric Dayne connection.

I'd like that too, but unfortunately Edric is too young to be a Targ.  He is Arya's age, and Aegon would be slightly older than Jon, so any real Aegon would have to be about 18-19 as of ADWD.  

On topic, I think Darkstar (AKA Gerold Dayne) could potentially be Aegon.  It would make sense for the Dayne's to take in Rhaegar's son.  We know Ned Stark visited the Dayne's after the Tower of Joy, so maybe he brought two babies with him, giving Aegon to the Daynes and taking Jon with him North.

I'm not 100% committed to that theory, however, because I don't know Darkstar's age.  AFAIK Arianne didn't give an estimate of his age in the one chapter we got where she was describing him.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

theguyfromtheVale, on 24 April 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

She was similar looking to Oberyn, but the Martells have Targaryen ancestors (Daenerys who had the Water Gardens built), and baby Aegon had silver hair.

That's not very convincing to me... Quentyn, Arriane, Oberyn, and now you tell me Elia, are/were dark haired and with varying skin tones all of them much darker than how Targaryens are described, the eye color as well. Also, a baby's hair color can and does change closer to the more dominant trait with time, so the real baby Aegon might have had silver-blonde hair but the adult Aegon would not anymore. Also 2, if R+L=J theory is true, then there you go: the more dominat mother traits in action. If the world of westeros has let's say 'realistic genetics' as the whole deal with Robert's and Lannister's bastards suggests, then he's either not the real Aegon (at all) or it would be an error in consistency by the author.

[theguyfromtheVale]

If Elia had an Aa genotype (A being dominant dark hair, a being recessive silver hair) , which is possible thanks to Daenerys, her children with Rhaegar would be expected to have either silver or dark hair, both with about 50% probability.

[Buckwheat]

Going back to the original question about Faegon being a pretender and the possibility about real Aegon around:

I think it is entirely possible and GRRM is definitely capable of writing it. But I do not think it a good storytelling.

I believe most of us want to read about the characters they have known since the first book, they know them well and like them for what they are. I, and most likely other readers, too, want to know what happens to Brandon, Jon, Sansa, Arya and Tyrion, not the characters the author might invent in the last book for shock value. It would not be a convincing story anymore if every other chapter starts revealing another secret Targ somewhere in Essos.

I believe Aegon is fake and he will only serve to be mummer's dragon Dany has to slay.

[Harland Flint]

Buckwheat, on 24 April 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

I believe Aegon is fake and he will only serve to be mummer's dragon Dany has to slay.

Or he could be a Blackfyre, but Dany still needs to slay him

[Buckwheat]

Harland Flint, on 24 April 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Or he could be a Blackfyre, but Dany still needs to slay him

As "fake", I meant exactly that: he is not the Aegon Targaryen, born to Elia and Rhaegar Targaryen in 283 or whichever year it was. He may be a Blackfyre or anybody else.

[King Tyrion VII]

Ser Wun Wun, on 24 April 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

I'd like that too, but unfortunately Edric is too young to be a Targ.  He is Arya's age, and Aegon would be slightly older than Jon, so any real Aegon would have to be about 18-19 as of ADWD.  

On topic, I think Darkstar (AKA Gerold Dayne) could potentially be Aegon.  It would make sense for the Dayne's to take in Rhaegar's son.  We know Ned Stark visited the Dayne's after the Tower of Joy, so maybe he brought two babies with him, giving Aegon to the Daynes and taking Jon with him North.

I'm not 100% committed to that theory, however, because I don't know Darkstar's age.  AFAIK Arianne didn't give an estimate of his age in the one chapter we got where she was describing him.

Very interesting

So we have no idea what Darkstar's age is?

[Buckwheat]

Tyrion Baratheon, on 24 April 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

So we have no idea what Darkstar's age is?

It is never stated, but I think he is too old to be Aegon.

[Eejit]

EgoistMusketeer, on 24 April 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

Otherwise how would Varys know how the mountain would have dealt with the baby? He could have stabbed him and left his face and head intact and then what? Babies are all similar looking but they targ eyes and some hair?

How many people would be intimately familiar with the features of the baby?
The general colouring isn't uncommon among Lysene, some of whom can be found in KL -notably as whores.