91 replies to this topic

[James Arryn]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Oh I know, I wasn't disputing you. In this case, the "dragon" itself would still technically be a "dragon," just one ... handled ... by someone with less than honest intentions.

Exactly.

I know we're talking around each other here, but to me that means the insincerity of the handler does not suggest it has to do with the dragon itself or how its used.

I know we also all acknowledge that its open to a lot of valid interpretation, and that's how I feel about it too, I just meant that the tear example wasn't actually an illustration of the way in which its different from the possessive.

But I did until...yesterday?....think it was being misunderstood, and someone...probably you...pointed out that the grammar wasn't as crucial as I;d thought given that it was an image, not a quoted line, and the idea that a mummer's dragon is an understood concept within Westeros, like a paper tiger.

[Apple Martini]

Yeah, I refer to it as a possible "visual pun" that could be taken multiple ways.

[James Arryn]

Dragonfish, on 24 April 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

You're reading things too literally. The tears themselves figuratively represent Xaro's supposed sadness, and the fact that they are associated with the word "mummer's" means that it is Xaro's "sadness" is fake.

No, I agree. I was just being pedantic about the tears example.

[King Tyrion VII]

I want to hear more about how Darkstar is the real Aegon

Someone said Edric's age is mentioned in an appendix? Has anyone checked for Darkstar's?

[Imascotsman]

I was under the impression that the

Targaryens have very striking eyes. Yet in no chapter where Aegon is mentioned does GRRM talk about his eye colour. If i am wrong then so be it but does that mean he is not a

Targaryen?

( Edit not sure what happened with my post being in multiple lines, it was not how i typed it ).

Edited by Imascotsman, 24 April 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Jem]

Imascotsman, on 24 April 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

I was under the impression that the

Targaryens have very striking eyes. Yet in no chapter where Aegon is mentioned does GRRM talk about his eye colour. If i am wrong then so be it but does that mean he is not a

Targaryen?

Tyrion mentions that Young Griff's eyes appear blue, but on closer inspection are actually purple. The blue hair dye that YG/Aegon wears in his hair serves to both disguise the colour of his hair as well as make his eyes look a bluer shade of purple.

Tyrion Baratheon, on 24 April 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

I want to hear more about how Darkstar is the real Aegon

Someone said Edric's age is mentioned in an appendix? Has anyone checked for Darkstar's?

I believe that Darkstar is a long time friend (or at least acquaintance) of Arienne. It seems that he is around her age, which is 23 (at the time of the Myrcella incident). Darkstar is certainly treated as a contemporary by Arienne and her other friends. It doesn't come across as if he is a 16 year old hanging out with older people.

[James Arryn]

Jem, on 24 April 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Tyrion mentions that Young Griff's eyes appear blue, but on closer inspection are actually purple. The blue hair dye that YG/Aegon wears in his hair serves to both disguise the colour of his hair as well as make his eyes look a bluer shade of purple.




I believe that Darkstar is a long time friend (or at least acquaintance) of Arienne. It seems that he is around her age, which is 23 (at the time of the Myrcella incident). Darkstar is certainly treated as a contemporary by Arienne and her other friends. It doesn't come across as if he is a 16 year old hanging out with older people.

It's still a kick ass idea I should have had, though.

[MikeDC]

Personally I think the pun is lost in the context of the sentence, though obviously it's meant to be open to interpretation, so we won't really ever know who's got the right answer. But to me, I think "mummer's dragon" just mean's that Aegon is Varys' guy.

When "mummer" is used as a term for a liar, metaphorically, it makes sense because we know the person is a liar. EG, Xaro's mummer's tears are insincere, and we draw the metaphor to Xaro being an actor, a mummer.

Varys, on the other hand, is legitimately a mummer, in that he was raised by and apparently trained as an actor.

I also draw a bit of meaning from the fact that the "mummer's dragon" is paired grammatically with the "Sun's son", In that context, the sun represents Dorne in general or Doran Martell specifically, but it's an honest description. So I take from the fact that the first part of the sentence is true that the second part is true as well.

But really, I think it could go either way.

[Dragonfish]

MikeDC, on 24 April 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

When "mummer" is used as a term for a liar, metaphorically, it makes sense because we know the person is a liar. EG, Xaro's mummer's tears are insincere, and we draw the metaphor to Xaro being an actor, a mummer.

I don't think such a reading is possible. Here is the full quote:

Quote

Tears welled from [Xaro's] eyes, creeping down his nose, past emeralds, amethysts, and black diamonds. "I told the Thirteen that you would heed my wisdom. It grieves me to learn that I was wrong. Take these ships and sail away, or you will surely die screaming. You cannot know how many enemies you have made."

I know one stands before me now, weeping mummer's tears. The realization made her sad.

I don't see how the metaphor of "mummer's tears" implies that Xaro is himself a mummer. Perhaps if it had been phrased differently (e.g. "The mummer's tears failed to convince her...") it would make more sense, but based on how it is currently phrased as the object of a verb without any article, it seems clear to me that "mummer's" exists merely to modify "tears", and thereby implies that Xaro's sadness is being affected.

Edited by Dragonfish, 24 April 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[MikeDC]

I don't follow. I simply meant that the word "mummer" applied to Xaro was obviously not literal. We can tell Xaro is full of shit from all sorts of contextual clues. He's crying false tears... he's a liar.

So we know his tears are "mummer's tears" and but we know he's not literally a mummer in the sense that Varys is. Just like I could act like I like my boss at work, but that wouldn't make me an actor. If someone told my boss I was putting on an when I laughed at his jokes, it'd be understood I was insincere. But if someone told him the actor's protege was get him, he wouldn't think it was a fake protege, he'd be right to worry about the fact he was some sort of threat.

I dunno, like I said, I could see it falling out either way, but generally, when I see an actor being called an actor, that seems like the straightforward interpretation.

[Dragonfish]

MikeDC, on 24 April 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I dunno, like I said, I could see it falling out either way, but generally, when I see an actor being called an actor, that seems like the straightforward interpretation.

My point is that Xaro is not being called an actor/mummer, whether literally or figuratively. The word "mummer's" simply describes the word "tears," nothing more.

To use an example, let's imagine I claim that someone I know has "a baker's dozen of cars." Now, the term "baker's dozen" is just a fancy way of saying "thirteen," and it works simply through the close association to the bakers' practice of making thirteen items for a customer instead of twelve. No one familiar with the term would think I am implying the owner of those cars was himself a baker, whether literally or figuratively. Similarly, the term "mummer's tears" is just a fancy way of referring to insincere sadness or concern, and it works through a close assocation to the mummer's act of pretending. In no way does it imply that the person making the tears is himself a mummer. The only reason the word "mummer's" is even involved in the metaphor is that mummers are closely associated with the practice being alluded to (i.e. pretending), just as the term "baker's dozen" simply alludes to a common baker's practice.

[MikeDC]

I don't think we're really disagreeing about much Dragonfish. But... for the sake of completeness and not getting real work done, I think there's a distinction to be made between "baker's dozen" and "mummer's tears".

• I agree that when one says there's a "bakers dozen", it doesn't have any literal or figurative implication that anyone is a baker.
  
• I disagree, and think there's a figurative implication that a person crying "mummer's tears" is insincere.
  
• I agree that the person who cries "mummer's tears" isn't literally a mummer. But in the figurative sense, they are, because they're putting on a pretend show of emotion.

To me, the figurative use of "mummer" conveys insincerity. But in the case of Aegon, it's not actually a figurative use, it's a literal one. I think Martin's just playing with words, so who the hell really knows how deeply he's taking it, but to me, I read it as him being ambiguous by implying a figurative use while actually using it as literally.