0
Ok, obviously I did not read all 22 pages of this forum, but I read the first 3, and then the last two. So it seems we're on the issue of Tyrion and Dany now, and whether each character has had equal amount of hatred from fans based on their actions, with the moderating factor of gender. I actually think that's a very interesting topic -- and a great example.
My take on it is this:
This comparison, while fascinating (non-sarcastic) has one flaw in it, which someone else might have pointed out: appearance. One thing we DO know about Westerosi culture -- hell, EVERY culture -- is that people are first based on appearance, whether you're a noble or commoner. Nobles get shit all the time from other nobles: all the endless jokes at Lady Lollys' expense, notably for her appearance/obesity, not just her mental disability (I assume she's retarded). Even Jon Snow, who is often praised as a paragon of decency and whatnot, reveals a little of this bias when he first meets Ygritte: "at court her face would be nothing more than common". Tyrion was incredibly lucky to be born in one of the Great Houses, esp. the richest one, but his birth also "shamed" that House because he had dwarfism and was also "hideously ugly". He has an oversized head, he has heterochromia with one green eye and one black eye, and "lank" hair that is platinum white, not so much blonde. Apparently his facial features are quite ugly, and after the BBB he lacks 3/4 of a nose.
Dany, on the other hand, is [at the beginning] one of the last two scions of the former royal house. That's pretty lucky in and of itself. It's unlucky that they're orphans, and that stress to regain the Iron Throne exacerbates Viserys' propensity to madness. However, Dany is described hundreds of times as being "the most beautiful woman in the world" (rumor has a way of amplifying things, to be sure). Now our imaginations can invent what we see as beautiful, but I've seen fan art done for Dany, esp. Roman's famous Targaryen portraits. In his, at least, her belly is exposed, showing off her tiny waist, her platinum blonde hair is cascading down her back, and she has a fierce, determined look in her purple eyes -- a color that is non-existent in the real world. The closest one can get is dark blue.
Ok, so why did I go on about Tyrion and Dany's appearance and background? Because those are traits and environments that they were born with/into, things they had no control over whatsoever. I think the only way one could compare the two is by basing discussion purely on actions that these two have done, by themselves.
The thing is, where do we start? Do we start with Dany's admission into the Dothraki tribe? It's a tempting place, since we know almost nothing of her time before and the years she spent with Viserys, flitting from one free city to another. It's harder with Tyrion. Most people think that we should start when he became Hand in his father's stead for a short time, but he did a lot before that. In fact, a whole book full of stuff.
He slapped Joffrey out of being a little shit for enough time to get to the Starks and apologize for not being there when they were grieving, he left to see the Wall with Jon, on the way earning a friendship. At the Wall he treated the men with respect, (except Thorne) and took note at Mormont's need for more men. He was captured and held in a Sky Cell, and his action there was simply to walk into a tavern and be falsely accused and seized. His action at the Eyrie was to bet his life on Bronn willing to fight for him in return for advancement & dough. He has proved to be brave in battles. However, his treatment of women is deeply flawed, because of what he suffered as a boy and because of the fact that most women who see him would NEVER want to sleep with him. He knows that the whores who service him are not enjoying it, and he's seen the look in their eyes when they have not been "warned" of his ugliness and dwarfism. However, up until Shae's betrayal, he treats them kindly, and after that is pretty much lost.
His term as Hand was dictated by his father's orders to basically act as he would act, and by having to play Cersei's game. He knew that he could not play the Game honorably, even though he had honor, because Cersei would crush him immediately -- and be glad to do it. So he had to stoop to her cruel, calculating, cunning level of deception and torture. What is interesting is that once he came into the city, the war was almost in full swing, but it was the TYRELLS who closed the Roseroad, causing the famine in the capital. However, with impending Stannis/Renly war, he starts making a chain, looking into how wildfire could be used, and "educating" his nephew on the finer points of flirting with teenagers
He chose to send Myrcella to Dorne (which would have been a good idea if not for Darkstar and Arianne's paranoia). He helped with the famine, recruited more members for the Night's Watch, tried to get Jaime out of the Starks' grasp, and kept an eye on Cersei to make sure she didn't make any more blunders. I could go on and on about his actions, but the point I'd like to make is this: no matter what he did, the commoners AND nobles hated him becaushe he he was an ugly dwarf. If Daenerys had done the same deeds, she would be hailed as King's Landing's savior Queen.Dany, on the other hand, did what she had to do to survive in the first book. She adopted the Dothraki culture, and why not? It seemed like living among them was to be her fate for a long while. It was Viserys who didn't understand that it might take a long while before Drogo would go to war for him. It was an ill-arranged marriage in the first place, and I wonder sometimes if Illyrio didn't see that in the first place. Knowing as much as he did about Dothraki culture, I wonder how he thought he would have stayed Viserys' impatience as the years passed and nothing happened. But that's a topic for another time. Personally, I believe that she was as manipulative as Tyrion, in a precocious way. At first she was afraid, but then she used the services she had available to her - Doreah - to learn the art of love. It's similar to what Cersei does on a regular basis, except this was just to have her husband privately defer to her (another Lady Joanna, maybe). Everyone else has gone over the actions she did, and they're valid.
One thing that I believe cannot be underestimated is the fact that she is a Targaryen. At first glance, that may seem like the dumbest sentence ever written about Dany. But it truly is important. Once those dragon eggs were given to her, she saw things, and felt things, that no one else could. Personality traits are also passed down genetically, so it seems like Targ traits seem to be: intensity, extreme stubborness, a feeling of being better than/above others, sweetness, daring, thrill-seeking behavior, inner strength, piousness (even if that piousness is believing oneself is a goddess, hehe), insanity (esp. related to fire), hallucinations, etc. etc. I could think of a bunch more, but those are the first ones that come to mind. Some of them are great, and some of them are dangerous.
Anyway, this may come as a surprise, but I wouldn't say that Dany is an overly complicated characters. She just has a lot of traits that seem to clash and collide (delusional clashes with sweetness; boldness clashes with hallucinations). Almost all of these traits come from the inbreeding of her family. And it seems that stress tends to exacerbate the insanity side of the Targs. So taking this stuff into account, all of her actions are tempered by the fact that anyone who first meets her is transfixed by her beauty, inevitably falls for her (or at least wants her) and on top of learning that she is a Targaryen, wants to use her, or marry her. She has shown that she can be a ruler, but at a great cost to the people she rules. With Tyrion as Hand to another Mad King, the city prospered and was saved, in large part because of his ideas, and also because of his father's hitting Stannis in the rear. Dany, however, is less emotionally stable, AS A PERSON, not as a female or male.
If people say that there are different standards between men and women, there are even more complicated standards between men who are dwarfs and women who are "inhumanely beautiful". It complicates the situation, but not to the point where we can't make a resolution!
Howling4Reed, on 23 April 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:
Its disingenuous to say that neither Tyrion nor Dany have suffered for their actions because both of them clearly have suffered. Tyrion removed from power, belittled by his father and sister, forced into exile (to avoid certain death), sold into slavery. Dany forced marriage to a barbarian, husband and son dead, betrayed by closest advisors, had to step up and rule/lead at a young age with little resources, constantly being challenged by every schemer and power hungry man in the world, limited/ no ability to control her dragons which are her only source of power, dragons constantly under threat of death or loss.
Just a couple things here:
Her husband was probably one of the least "barbaric" man in a verrrrry barbaric culture. She was very lucky there.
She didn't have to step up and rule, and she was of an age to rule anyway. She chose to cross the Red Waste b/c she thought the comet was leading her somewhere.
I don't agree that she has limited ability to control her dragons. She controlled the biggest, most fiery-tempered one of them with nothing but a whip and her voice (yea yea everyone's said this before, but that's b/c it's true).
The dragons are by no means constantly threatened by death. The only time they were at that stage was when she couldn't remember how to feed them. Now that they're big, they'll be pretty hard to lose, as Quentyn learned to his sorrow. (Yes, Vis and Rhae have flown off for now, but I highly doubt they're gone for good.)
)
