160 replies to this topic

[James Arryn]

Castel, on 24 April 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

The fact is he was disadvantaged from the start. He was basically a scapegoat because they didn't want to blame the king or queen (this tends to be the case a lot apparently). And lets pretend for a moment Tyrion went out there and showed off what do you think he would get? Laughter. The things that made knights and men like Rhaegar likeable have been completely denied to Tyrion. The talents he does have and use for the people are such that it requires a person to be rational and to be on the inside to see it work and not be trying to find a scapegoat.

To a degree, but there's also a bit of Cersei's ironic self-defeating defensiveness in Tyrion.

He (understandably) resents being typecast so much he often plays up the role. Sometimes its in a Machiavellian way, but other times its kinda  HS angst.

But, in general, I agree. I've always seen Tyrion is representing a lot of what Richard III has come to mean.

[Silmarien]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

... Gee, and who oh who thought to use wildfire?




Yeah, and now that same city is parked outside her doorstep with a pretty large army.

Cersei thought to use Wildfire.   She had the alchemists guild making mass quantities of it before Tyrion even arrived, as well as weapons, armor, trebuchets, etc., in preparation for the battle.

I simply think Tyrion placed his own men in positions of authority and none of it meant much as Pycelle got restored to the council, Bywater got killed in the battle, and Bronn was Knighted by Tywin, leaving him friendless and alone once the battle started.  If he'd tried making friends WITHOUT needing to pay for loyalty, he might have had a chance.  Instead he spent half the book sleeping with Shae and thinking he loved him, or not, but obsessing over her safety, in general.

Edited by Silmarien, 24 April 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

Castel, on 24 April 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

The fact is he was disadvantaged from the start. He was basically a scapegoat because they didn't want to blame the king or queen (this tends to be the case a lot apparently). And lets pretend for a moment Tyrion went out there and showed off what do you think he would get? Laughter. The things that made knights and men like Rhaegar likeable have been completely denied to Tyrion. The talents he does have and use for the people are such that it requires a person to be rational and to be on the inside to see it work and not be trying to find a scapegoat.

And yet, he is liked when he tries: his clansmen cheer him, the men he leads into battle cheer him, Penny likes him, the men a the  NW seem to like him just fine.

ETA: a ton of good? Like helping him torture an old man, kill people and the like?

Edited by Winter's Knight, 24 April 2012 - 11:45 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Silmarien, on 24 April 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Cersei thought to use Wildfire.

Yes, I stand corrected. Tyrion's the one who implemented it though and kept the city from burning the hell down during the rioting.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Winter, on 24 April 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

And yet, he is liked when he tries: his clansmen cheer him, the men he leads into battle cheer him, Penny likes him, the men a the  NW seem to like him just fine.

Penny would like Ramsay. The only person who likes Tyrion (except Penny) is Jon Snow. Anyways, what does this have to do with Dany?

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Yes, I stand corrected. Tyrion's the one who implemented it though and kept the city from burning the hell down during the rioting.

By keeping the fire in Flea's bottom, where 50% of the population lives.
P.S. Why hasn't the chain or the wildfire on HBO yet?

Edited by Ndrew of Typhgarian, 24 April 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[James Arryn]

Winter, on 24 April 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

And yet, he is liked when he tries: his clansmen cheer him, the men he leads into battle cheer him, Penny likes him, the men a the  NW seem to like him just fine.

Only to the degree with which they can personally experience him.

You can't rule a city of thousands based on personal interaction.

[Apple Martini]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 24 April 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Penny would like Ramsay. The only person who likes Tyrion (except Penny) is Jon Snow. Anyways, what does this have to do with Dany?

They both have plot armor and apparently if you bitch about Dany's you have to bitch about Tyrion's.

Quote

By keeping the fire in Flea's bottom, where 50% of the population lives.

50% < 100%

[James Arryn]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Yes, I stand corrected. Tyrion's the one who implemented it though and kept the city from burning the hell down during the rioting.

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Cersei is the first one to think of using Wildfire.

Also, it was Cersei who first thought of using Wildfire.

And while Tyrion was the one to actually implement Wildfire, it was Cersei who first thought of it.

Oh, and another thing. Cersei was the one to first come up with the idea of using Wildfire.

Edited by James Arryn, 24 April 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 24 April 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Penny would like Ramsay. The only person who likes Tyrion (except Penny) is Jon Snow. Anyways, what does this have to do with Dany?

We're doing a comparison I think-how Dany gets grief for every minor error while Tyrion gets a pass for every major one.

James Arryn, on 24 April 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Only to the degree with which they can personally experience him.

You can't rule a city of thousands based on personal interaction.

He cannot expect to win the people's affections without even trying, is what I'm saying.

[Apple Martini]

James Arryn, on 24 April 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Cersei is the first one to think of using Wildfire.

Also, it was Cersei who first thought of using Wildfire.

And while Tyrion was the one to actually implement Wildfire, it was Cersei who first thought of it.

Oh, and another thing. Cersie was the one to first come up with the idea of using Wildfire.

And we know that Cersei is the epitome of rational, level-headed leadership in the capital.

Quote

He cannot expect to win the people's affections without even trying, is what I'm saying.

His nephew is a sociopath, his sister's stacked political posts with spies and toadies, he has to work at making new alliances, and Stannis Baratheon is crawling up his arse with a fleet ready to besiege the city. You think he has time to go around glad-handing?

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 April 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

They both have plot armor and apparently if you bitch about Dany's you have to bitch about Tyrion's.



50% < 100%

Dany and Tyrion have plot armor. Or Ramsay and Penny lol.
And yes 100% is greater then 50%. But that's what every discussion about Tyrion is about. He is awsome and saves the world. But he cracks eggs to do it and he's ugly.

Winter, on 24 April 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

We're doing a comparison I think-how Dany gets grief for every minor error while Tyrion gets a pass for every major one.

Ahh. I agree. Dany crucified a few people, yet that's about the extent of her "evilness" and she only did it to clench a rebellion.
Giving the antlermen to Joff, or the religious men to Cersie seems a tad more evil

[oba]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

They both have plot armor and apparently if you bitch about Dany's you have to bitch about Tyrion's.

A third option could be recognizing that characters have plot armor and just not bitch about it at all.

[James Arryn]

oba, on 24 April 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

A third option could be recognizing that characters have plot armor and just not bitch about it at all.

Bitch armor?

[BigBucket]

Queen Cersei I, on 24 April 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Overall, Tyrion made some pretty glaring mistakes in King’s Landing that led to his eventual downfall. Saying he failed because he was instantly loathed and persecuted for his dwarfism is inaccurate. When considering Tyrion’s overall political/ leadership abilities, I think it is essential to take his significant failings and weaknesses into account.

However, looking critically at his activities in kings landing, people did not hate him “simply for being a dwarf.” (The conclusion that he eventually comes to.) His own mistakes are ultimately responsible for how he was perceived by the smallfolk and most of those around him.

I'm just wondering if you have any quotes from the text to show what leads you to think this.  Dwarfism was a very big deal in the sort of world Westeros is. People felt they were cursed by the gods and used them as scapegoats for all sorts of ridiculous things. His name protects him to a certain extent but I believe that in Flea Bottom, amongst the small folk, the fact that he is a Dwarf is going to be the biggest factor in how he is perceived. I find it just as likely that any good he could have done would have been attributed to someone more fitting the 'ideal' saviour mould.

[oba]

James Arryn, on 24 April 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Bitch armor?

If authors ever read forums like these, I'm sure they'd have to put on bitch armor/anti-bitch armor in order to stomach them.

Seriously, though, how boring would this series be if plot armor didn't exist?

[oba]

BigBucket, on 24 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm just wondering if you have any quotes from the text to show what leads you to think this.  Dwarfism was a very big deal in the sort of world Westeros is. People felt they were cursed by the gods and used them as scapegoats for all sorts of ridiculous things. His name protects him to a certain extent but I believe that in Flea Bottom, amongst the small folk, the fact that he is a Dwarf is going to be the biggest factor in how he is perceived. I find it just as likely that any good he could have done would have been attributed to someone more fitting the 'ideal' saviour mould.

Jacelyn Bywater gives other reasons (whether they're accurate or not) besides dwarfism as to why the smallfolk hate Tyrion :

Quote

Bywater's deep-set eyes met the dwarf's mismatched ones, and did not blink. "You most of all, my lord."
"Most of all?" The injustice was like to choke him. "It was Joffrey who told them to eat their dead, Joffrey who set his dog on them. How could they blame me?"
"His Grace is but a boy. In the streets, it is said that he has evil councillors. The queen has never been known as a friend to the commons, nor is Lord Varys called the Spider out of love . . . but it is you they blame most. Your sister and the eunuch were here when times were better under King Robert, but you were not. They say that you've filled the city with swaggering sellswords and unwashed savages, brutes who take what they want and follow no laws but their own. They say you exiled Janos Slynt because you found him too bluff and honest for your liking. They say you threw wise and gentle Pycelle into the dungeons when he dared raise his voice against you. Some even claim that you mean to seize the Iron Throne for your own."

[Gingerly Grumkin]

BigBucket, on 24 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm just wondering if you have any quotes from the text to show what leads you to think this.  Dwarfism was a very big deal in the sort of world Westeros is. People felt they were cursed by the gods and used them as scapegoats for all sorts of ridiculous things. His name protects him to a certain extent but I believe that in Flea Bottom, amongst the small folk, the fact that he is a Dwarf is going to be the biggest factor in how he is perceived. I find it just as likely that any good he could have done would have been attributed to someone more fitting the 'ideal' saviour mould.

He was hated at first because he's an ugly dwarf with wildling sellswords. then he made the blacksmiths work 24/7. he burnt down fleas bottom. he is the blame for the dwarf's penny (whore tax), he shipped off the princess, etc, etc. Tyrion is looked upon as a monster for his alleged monstrosities

[Winter's Knight]

I forgot about the blacksmiths-he never made any mention of paying them did he?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Winter, on 24 April 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

I forgot about the blacksmiths-he never made any mention of paying them did he?

idk, i kinda exaggerated though. Cersie made em work 24/7 for swords and stuff regardless. Although building a chain is "simple work" so they got pissed off about it. apparently one of em (who wanted to build Tyrion a deamon helm) was so pissed he became an antlerman.

Edited by Ndrew of Typhgarian, 24 April 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[James Arryn]

oba, on 24 April 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

If authors ever read forums like these, I'm sure they'd have to put on bitch armor/anti-bitch armor in order to stomach them.

Seriously, though, how boring would this series be if plot armor didn't exist?

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing.


On an aisde, GRRM is said to be very interactive. I'd always imagined that pertained to his webpage, etc...but I suppose its possible he lurks in here from time to time.

Is there an established view on whether or not that's true/likely/known?