55 replies to this topic

[Faceless Sam]

a very common sentiment on this forums seems to be that martin didnt get the ages of the kids right.  besides robb being deemed too young to lead people into war at the age of fifteen, a lot of people say arya becoming a professional killer at the age of eleven is unbelievable.

now my question is why?
in our world children way younger than eleven are being made professional killers, so why is it so unrealistic in the world of ice and fire?

[James Arryn]

Have you seen Leon? (aka the Professional)

[Apple Martini]

Kony's Landing?

... I'll show myself out.

[Winter's Knight]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Kony's Landing?

... I'll show myself out.

  Too soon.

OT I wish he'd made the kids older, some scenes are very difficult to read about-Sansa's wedding night, Dany/Drogo...

[Faceless Sam]

James Arryn, on 24 April 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Have you seen Leon? (aka the Professional)

i was rather thinking of this: http://www.unicef.or...ndex_15350.html

average recruitment age of a child soldier is 13.

[IronSuitor]

I don't find Arya's transformation particularly jarring, given what she went through in the Riverlands. You rightly point out that relatively normal children become cold blooded killers all the time if exposed to the horrors of a war zone.

Robb I find a little more out there, but then again we never see inside his head and have limited access to his councils. It's very likely that he was being heavily influenced by the more mature lords around him, as happens with most very young leaders. Even Robb's equivalent in the Wars of the Roses, Edward IV, was notable for being strongly attached to older men like Warwick throughout his early years, and he was 19 when he took up his father's cause.

[Mulled Wino]

I have no problem with Arya's talents.  They seem legit.

[James Arryn]

IronSuitor, on 24 April 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

I don't find Arya's transformation particularly jarring, given what she went through in the Riverlands. You rightly point out that relatively normal children become cold blooded killers all the time if exposed to the horrors of a war zone.

Robb I find a little more out there, but then again we never see inside his head and have limited access to his councils. It's very likely that he was being heavily influenced by the more mature lords around him, as happens with most very young leaders. Even Robb's equivalent in the Wars of the Roses, Edward IV, was notable for being strongly attached to older men like Warwick throughout his early years, and he was 19 when he took up his father's cause.

Yeah, he's also somewhat Ed I.

[Mulled Wino]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Kony's Landing?

... I'll show myself out.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

I think people miss the point that Arya and other exceptional children (or 'youths'; Robb, Daenerys, etc.) in the series represent the sort of heroic figures encountered in epic fantasy or Norse sagas focused on multiple generations of one heroic family - only they are the versions of those characters one finds in Martinworld.

The disappointingly realistic failures of Robb or Daenerys are an example, but I think this theme shows up most poignantly in Arya and Bran Stark, who are the outliers in this lot in terms of youth.  Their tales, to me, outline the terrible price paid by many child prodigies in the real world - the templates for Martinworld's young-chosen-one figures.

Both Bran and Arya have struck out (more or less) on their own, on 'heroic quests' of sorts, with the endgame seeming to portend (more or less) great magical destinies.  And both seem poised to pay (more or less) terrible prices to achieve these destinies.

Compare this to Bobby Fischer, a chess prodigy who, from a very young age, dedicated thousands upon thousands of hours to the play and study of the game, and became staggeringly successful - until he went fucking batshit.  People who achieve great things so young have to sacrifice a lot.  The consequences are not always so dramatic as Bobby Fischer's madness, or the seeming erasure of Arya, or whatever Bran's destiny will mean for his future (who cleans up your "number two's" when you are grafted to weirwood roots?).  But there are usually consequences.

Edited by Tumnas the Torpid, 24 April 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[jblair]

The ages only seem off due to modern sensibilities. A man was a man well before 18 back in the day, and a girl became a woman at first blood. This whole notion of "childhood" is a recent construct. When life expectancy hovers around 30, you don't waste too much time with dolls and stick-fighting.

[Lummel]

Winter, on 24 April 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

...OT I wish he'd made the kids older, some scenes are very difficult to read about-Sansa's wedding night, Dany/Drogo...

I think they are meant to be difficult to read about.

[Errant Bard]

There isn't a single character who's not too young to be a professional killer.

But other than that it's believable that a child could become a killer.

As for the "back in the day" comment, it makes no sense, as a collaborator of GRRM argues.

[eyomomo]

I was a little disturbed when I found out how young a lot of the characters really are when I started reading the books in comparison to the television series, but now i think the ages are fitting. Life expectancy is a big deal when considering what age marks adulthood.

There was one part in aGoT when Sansa is thinking about Ned sending out Beric Dondarrion to capture Ser Gregor, & her thinking that he was "so old..." at 22... I'm 26 & unmarried. If I lived in Westeros I'd probably have to give up on life at this point & join the Silent Sisters

[Errant Bard]

eyomomo, on 24 April 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I was a little disturbed when I found out how young a lot of the characters really are when I started reading the books in comparison to the television series, but now i think the ages are fitting. Life expectancy is a big deal when considering what age marks adulthood.

There was one part in aGoT when Sansa is thinking about Ned sending out Beric Dondarrion to capture Ser Gregor, & her thinking that he was "so old..." at 22... I'm 26 & unmarried. If I lived in Westeros I'd probably have to give up on life at this point & join the Silent Sisters

With all due respect, it's BS, Westeros isn't middle ages (and middle ages life expectancy was not even that low once you survived infancy - childhood mortality does wreck averages), you have a lot of guys who live well into old age when not getting involved in some war or another. And even then Barristan bloody Selmy is still there.

And children have always thought that above 15 was old.

Edited by Errant Bard, 24 April 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[eyomomo]

Errant Bard, on 24 April 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

With all due respect, it's BS, Westeros isn't middle ages (and middle ages life expectancy was not even that low once you survived infancy - childhood mortality does wreck averages), you have a lot of guys who live well into old age when not getting involved in some war or another. And even then Barristan bloody Selmy is still there.

And children have always thought that above 15 was old.

Yeah but war/turmoil seems to be a pretty common occurrence in this world, so "not getting involved" isn't really an option a lot of the times. Sure, a lot of people do live well into old age, Aemon, Olenna, etc - but it seems to me that most people that live to be seniors are considered practically useless with exception to Selmy. and even Selmy says "I'm getting too old for this shit!" all the time in his head.

EDIT: A lot of kids are forced to into adult situations before they are mature enough to handle them, it happens in the book & it happens in real life ALL THE TIME. Kids get raped, they witness murder, they ARE murdered. Parents are killed & leave orphan children alone, or taking care of their siblings. Or worse, the parents are alive but otherwise absent & children often have to fend for themselves. After reading your comment, it just reinforces my opinion that they AREN'T too young at all. I don't think a lot of us would love this series so much if it wasn't so realistic in the way it portrays an imperfect society and people within this awesome fantasy setting. The fact that a lot of the best-loved characters are so young just makes their stories that much more riveting & impressive!

Edited by eyomomo, 24 April 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[IronSuitor]

Quote

With all due respect, it's BS, Westeros isn't middle ages (and middle ages life expectancy was not even that low once you survived infancy - childhood mortality does wreck averages),

That's a good point. We've made great strides in reducing childhood mortality, but once childhood is eliminated survival into old age has not improved as much as you'd think. The prevalence of children with at least symbolic responsibility has much more to do with the realities of bloodline politics than shorter life-expectancy.

[Hear Us Roar]

I have been saying this. She would have benefited from a 5 year time skip

[Dr. Pepper]

My job takes me all over the world.  I find that my ability to accept the children's ages and their feats changes depending on which part of the world I'm in.  It becomes nearly unbelievable that Robb could have lead an army or Arya could be trained as a FM at such young ages when I'm in Europe or the U.S.  Yet it's quite believable when I'm in a rural village in Bolivia.

Most times I mentally tack on a few years to the young characters so that I don't have to deal with any unbelievability that might come due to the ages.

[The Black Wolf]

I think it's important to notice that being a teenager, that is, not quite an adult but not really a child, is a fairly new construct. Only about a century ago you were either a child or an adult, with little to nothing in between, and I'd imagine it works similarly in Westeros. I know Westeros isn't our Middle Ages, but I think it's fair to draw a parallel and remember that people grew up a lot quicker then. Children were a burden, and you wanted them to start helping you in the field or whatever as soon as possible. In a time of instability or sudden war, the current king or lord could die basically at any moment, so they needed their heirs to be ready to take over. So, in general, her being 11 and not acting like 11-year-olds do today doesn't bother me.

About her becoming a professional assasin... well, I'd say she was too young or, simply, small if her way of killing relied on strength, but from what I've seen, it doesn't. She relies on being sneaky, clever and fast. Children aren't stupid when they are 11, and if you had ever seen me and my cousins playing hide and seek in the middle of the night in a small village when we were 11... you'd realize kids can be pretty sneaky and fast too.

Edited by The Black Wolf, 24 April 2012 - 03:35 PM.