29 replies to this topic

[Pliskin]

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but...

Davos had to smuggle Melisandre to give birth to a shadow... But they cut Cortnay Penrose and they merged the two deaths by shadow baby.
So, since the assassination does not seem to take place at Storm's End, why do they need to smuggle like they did in the book ?
The justification in the book was that Storm's End had the magical protection of Brandon the Builder. The shadow could not pass this magical barrier, and so Melisandre had to give birth inside Storm's End.
But there is no such protection for Renly's camp...
No need to smuggle. Melisandre can just give birth wherever she wants, and the shadow manages by itself to do what's needed to be done.

I understand the need for a scene like this, an interaction between Melisandre and Davos like in the books. But they seem to not care about incoherences that result from cut-offs in the adaptation.

Maybe we'll get an explanation next week ?

[Proudwing]

I got the impression that Stannis didn't want people to know what he was doing. Is Melisandre had have birthed the shadow on his ship, men would have seen it and put two and two together when they heard of Renly's death. Smuggling Melisandre to a secluded cave means that nobody sees her, and Stannis gets off blame free for his brother's murder.

[ClashOfTheAsh]

I tought the cave was supposed to be under Storms End?!?

[Pliskin]

Proudwing, on 24 April 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

I got the impression that Stannis didn't want people to know what he was doing. Is Melisandre had have birthed the shadow on his ship, men would have seen it and put two and two together when they heard of Renly's death. Smuggling Melisandre to a secluded cave means that nobody sees her, and Stannis gets off blame free for his brother's murder.

Thanks, it makes sense !

Well, the whole thread is pointless now
I should have posted this on the episode thread.

[boojam]

Pliskin, on 24 April 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but...

Davos had to smuggle Melisandre to give birth to a shadow... But they cut Cortnay Penrose and they merged the two deaths by shadow baby.
So, since the assassination does not seem to take place at Storm's End, why do they need to smuggle like they did in the book ?

Even in the book George was speaking metaphorically, well Stannis was speaking that way to Davos, in fact , kind of tongue in cheek.
Surely you don't take this to mean literally 'smuggling' Stanis is asking Davos to 'sneak' Melisandre ashore in some spot were they wont be noticed. From Davos's reaction it seems to be an old place he used to know as a smuggler.
It's a play on words.

[Pliskin]

boojam, on 24 April 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Even in the book George was speaking metaphorically, well Stannis was speaking that way to Davos, in fact , kind of tongue in cheek.
Surely you don't take this to mean literally 'smuggling' Stanis is asking Davos to 'sneak' Melisandre ashore in some spot were they wont be noticed. From Davos's reaction it seems to be an old place he used to know as a smuggler.
It's a play on words.

Yes, I understood the reference to Davos' past, but sorry I'm not a native english speaker. I thought we could use "smuggle" as "sneak" like Stannis did.

[miguel sanchez]

umm but what about:
"There didn't used to be bars here"
"they can't stop me"
I don't remember the dialog very well, clearly, but didn't that mean that Davos thought he was supposed to be taking her further? Also, what is further on in the cave? Where does it lead? I can't understand the necessity for some iron bars to block the passage, we have no idea where it leads, it can't lead into Renly's camp? That aspect only makes sense for the original Storms end smuggling.

[Leto Atreides]

I think the scene was filmed with Storms End in mind, which was later cut out. Why would they need to sneak in a cave blocked by metal bars while Renly's camp is on a open field?

[_Oberyn_]

Basicaly they just wanted the background, or they had different plans when the scene was filmed that did not work out after all.

Edited by _Oberyn_, 24 April 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Iszlai Ádám]

Obviously the two kills will be merged, OR there will be only 1 kill: Renly, and they are at Storm's End. Renly dies --> baratheons open the gate for the another baratheon, tadam

[Spidey]

Pliskin, on 24 April 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

I understand the need for a scene like this, an interaction between Melisandre and Davos like in the books. But they seem to not care about incoherences that result from cut-offs in the adaptation.

Maybe we'll get an explanation next week ?

It's simple. On the show, the shadow babies have a very short lifespan. So Mel has to be as close as possible in order for the baby to reach and kill its target in time.

At least that's how i would explain it...

Edited by Spidey, 24 April 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[boojam]

Leto Atreides, on 24 April 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

I think the scene was filmed with Storms End in mind, which was later cut out. Why would they need to sneak in a cave blocked by metal bars while Renly's camp is on a open field?

The scene is 'borrowed' from the Storms End sequence in the novel, Storms End will never explicitly occur in the limited time they have on the show.

[Tadco26]

Hopefully we find out that there is some sort of secret tunnel into Renly's camp or something to make it more understandable.  Obviously since Davos did not need to smuggle Mel in to kill Renly in the books, such an action can only be explained by the show and not from any information gathered from the books.

[The Second Hand]

There is no explanation. It doesn't make any sense. It was a big gaffe by not making time for Storm's End, especially considering how important it is to both the world building and later novels. Plus, I think the Penrose confrontation would have made fantastic television.

[Honey Badger]

Kinda weird.  Renly died in a grand pavilion in an open field.  The bars weren't necessary.  Something happened where they needed to cut Storm's End and they're forced to fit them together.  Otherwise they could have better explained that Renly was camped in a small fort somewhere for the time being, and the Onion Knight happened to know the layout for midnight smuggling.  

For the smaller scope of the show, Margaery is now the mix between herself and the QoT, while Renly's death needs to cover the castellan at Storm's End and the side story with using Edric Storm as a blood sacrifice.  All of it is being condensed.

[CladInShadows]

I pictured that they'd landed in a small cove, the only way up to the fields from which was through that cave. It seems like the first thing that Renly's men would bar off to prevent a sneak attach from that angle. Davos probably thought they were going to sneak through the cave/tunnel up to Renly's camp.

[boojam]

CladInShadows, on 24 April 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

I pictured that they'd landed in a small cove, the only way up to the fields from which was through that cave. It seems like the first thing that Renly's men would bar off to prevent a sneak attach from that angle. Davos probably thought they were going to sneak through the cave/tunnel up to Renly's camp.

Was not the implication that this was an old smugglers route (one of many) that Davos knew about, that would give access to Renly camp?
The bars were there because it had been discovered and sealed off.
Actually as was noted else where that was a real cave in Nort Ireland and those were real bars put up by some authority for some kind of safety reasons.
I think they lucked into a ready made 'location' , worked out well.

Edited by boojam, 25 April 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[Pliskin]

CladInShadows, on 24 April 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

I pictured that they'd landed in a small cove, the only way up to the fields from which was through that cave. It seems like the first thing that Renly's men would bar off to prevent a sneak attach from that angle. Davos probably thought they were going to sneak through the cave/tunnel up to Renly's camp.

It's not the topic.
I should have entitled the thread "Why do they need to access to Renly's camp ?
In the books, it wasn't necessary, since there was no magical protection. The shadow made it to the camp by itself.

The only kind of satisfying explanations for now are :

this :

Proudwing, on 24 April 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

I got the impression that Stannis didn't want people to know what he was doing. Is Melisandre had have birthed the shadow on his ship, men would have seen it and put two and two together when they heard of Renly's death. Smuggling Melisandre to a secluded cave means that nobody sees her, and Stannis gets off blame free for his brother's murder.

(though this wasn't necessary in the books, so why in the show ?)

and this :

Spidey, on 24 April 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

It's simple. On the show, the shadow babies have a very short lifespan. So Mel has to be as close as possible in order for the baby to reach and kill its target in time.

I prefer the second one.

[legba11]

Being that we don't know anything about shadow assassins,  At least I don't, maybe I missed that day in biology,  any explanation can really suffice.  Maybe they have a very limited range. Maybe they are not that easy to target, so she needs to be close to Renly.  The Stannis not wanting his men to see it makes sense.  Maybe they need to be birthed in a special type of place. Maybe Stannisshadow is very specific and will kill something similar to what birthed him, and that's how it finds Renly. (since he is closer than Stannis)

[ChromeWeasel]

Proudwing, on 24 April 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

I got the impression that Stannis didn't want people to know what he was doing. Is Melisandre had have birthed the shadow on his ship, men would have seen it and put two and two together when they heard of Renly's death. Smuggling Melisandre to a secluded cave means that nobody sees her, and Stannis gets off blame free for his brother's murder.

Stannis doesnt necessarily know anything. Melissandre may have told Stannis that R'hallor needs her to be carried to a specific spot for a specific purpose. And it has to be done in order for Stannis to achieve victory over his brother. She could say that no one must know, for R'hallor works in secret. So Stannis needs to use only his most trusted man for the job and they can never speak of what goes on.

That's the impression that I got from the way things happen in the books. It seems like Stannis did not know anything about the shadow-baby. In the TV show he seems more knowledgable, but it could still be kept from his eyes. Melissandre intentionally keeps things from Stannis. She's answered his questions about why things need to be done with the generic 'because we serve R'hallor' before.