67 replies to this topic

[hiccupzz]

Hello!  

Anyone else reckon Jeyne Westerling was switched and isn't at Riverrun anymore?  Catelyn always described her as having wide hips, "good for bearing children", and also being pretty but when Jaime takes Riverrun and questions her he describes her as plain and having narrow hips, or something to that effect.  

Anyone reckon she escaped?  Possibly with the Blackfish?  And maybe she's pregnant?  I'd love to see what would happen if she is!

Also apologies if this topic has already been posted, I couldn't see it though!

Edited by hiccupzz, 24 April 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Well it's not really a question of whether she's "alive," but whether the Jeyne whom Jaime sees is the same one whom Catelyn sees — basically, were they switched.

I personally think there are enough inconsistencies/oddities to guess that a switch might have happened, but other people disagree.

[eyeheartsansa]

Jeyne is back at the Crag with her father.  We are led to believe that her mother was giving her moon tea to prevent any conception, but I suppose anything can happen.

[hiccupzz]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well it's not really a question of whether she's "alive," but whether the Jeyne whom Jaime sees is the same one whom Catelyn sees — basically, were they switched.

Oops! My bad, meant to say switched!

[Turkey Jack]

hiccupzz, on 24 April 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Hello!  

Anyone else reckon Jeyne Westerling was switched and isn't at Riverrun anymore?  Catelyn always described her as having wide hips, "good for bearing children", and also being pretty

Did she I seem to recall Cat questioning her about her narrow hips and how many children her mother had, or was that somebody else?

[oba]

Turkey Jack, on 24 April 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Did she I seem to recall Cat questioning her about her narrow hips and how many children her mother had, or was that somebody else?

You're thinking of Catelyn at the Twins asking about Roslin Frey's mother.

Catelyn thinks to herself that Jeyne has "good" hips (though she doesn't necessarily think "wide" hips).

I don't think Jeyne was switched, but, if it turns out to be the case there's no denying that there is some textual support for it.

Edited by oba, 24 April 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Turkey Jack, on 24 April 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Did she I seem to recall Cat questioning her about her narrow hips and how many children her mother had, or was that somebody else?

That was Roslin Frey. She was quite tiny and Catelyn was worried about her ability to bear children. The Frey maester reassured her and said that her Rosby mother had plenty of healthy children.

And Catelyn comments on Jeyne's healthy, good child-bearing (read: wide) hips twice, one of which ends a chapter with an emphasis.

oba, on 24 April 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

Catelyn thinks to herself that Jeyne has "good" hips (though she doesn't necessarily think "wide" hips).

Good child-bearing hips are wider. That's what makes them ... good child-bearing hips.

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 April 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[oba]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

And Catelyn comments on Jeyne's healthy, good child-bearing (read: wide) hips twice, one of which ends a chapter with an emphasis.

We don't know that good = wide in this context.

Quote

Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She should have no trouble bearing children, at least.

Quote

The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important.

That's all we get from Catelyn re: Jeyne's hips.

When Catelyn does think to herself that she's observed young women with wide hips, it's when she's at the Twins looking at the female Freys of Crakehall descent:

Quote

She much preferred the frames of some of the older girls in the hall; daughters or granddaughters, she could not be sure. They had a Crakehall look about them, and Lord Walder's third wife had been of that House. Wide hips to bear children, big breasts to nurse them, strong arms to carry them. The Grakehalls have always been a bigboned family, and strong.

[eyeheartsansa]

Quote

Good child-bearing hips are wider. That's what makes them ... good child-bearing hips

fun, unrelated fact: this is actually a myth; it's all about the shape of the pelvic bone, not the hips... not that anyone in Westeros would know this.

[Apple Martini]

But "good child-bearing hips" are wider (edited for clarification) to Catelyn, that's my point. That's what makes them good for bearing children. No one would look at a narrow-hipped girl and say, "Wow she's got good child-bearing hips."

eyeheartsansa, on 24 April 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

fun, unrelated fact: this is actually a myth; it's all about the shape of the pelvic bone, not the hips... not that anyone in Westeros would know this.

I'm talking about how Catelyn would view them, yeah.

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 April 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[Serie]

yes she is alive and I hope she's an emotional rack because I liked that girl and just in the thought that she might be aware of the whole tywin-sybell westerling plotting I get so angry I can't describe how much!!! see? I can't even put words in the proper order!

[oba]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

But "good child-bearing hips" are wider, that's my point. That's what makes them good for bearing children. No one would look at a narrow-hipped girl and say, "Wow she's got good child-bearing hips."

The issue is whether Catelyn and Jaime could look at Jeyne in different contexts and make different observations re: her hips.  Catelyn's looking at her daughter-in-law and what her hips mean in the context of giving birth.  Jaime's looking at the young woman for whom Robb Stark seemingly cast away his kingdom and seeing a skinny teenager.  I don't think he's thinking about what her hips mean with respect to childbearing, whereas Catelyn is.  I just don't see that as any sort of "proof" that they're talking about two different people.

Edited by oba, 24 April 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Apple Martini]

oba, on 24 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

The issue is whether Catelyn and Jaime could look at Jaime in different contexts and make different observations re: her hips.  Catelyn's looking at her daughter-in-law and what her hips mean in the context of giving birth.  Jaime's looking at the young woman for whom Robb Stark seemingly cast away his kingdom and seeing a skinny teenager.  I don't think he's thinking about what her hips mean with respect to childbearing, whereas Catelyn is.  I just don't see that as any sort of "proof" that they're talking about two different people.

And that's fine. If you notice, I said that people have conflicting opinions on it. But my point stands: To a woman like Catelyn, "good" = "wide." I can see Catelyn seeing normal hips and Jaime seeing narrow ones, or Catelyn seeing wide hips and Jaime seeing normal ones. But one extreme to the other, you'll have to forgive me, is a little hard to swallow, different context or not.

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 April 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[Serie]

oba, on 24 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

The issue is whether Catelyn and Jaime could look at Jeyne in different contexts and make different observations re: her hips.  Catelyn's looking at her daughter-in-law and what her hips mean in the context of giving birth.  Jaime's looking at the young woman for whom Robb Stark seemingly cast away his kingdom and seeing a skinny teenager.  I don't think he's thinking about what her hips mean with respect to childbearing, whereas Catelyn is.  I just don't see that as any sort of "proof" that they're talking about two different people.

from personal experience when your hips are wide enough for a woman to say "good" hips for gibing birth, guys sees them as HUGE.
Have you noticed how's this particular phrase is written in italics? in my ASOS version at least its like that....

[oba]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

And that's fine. If you notice, I said that people have conflicting opinions on it. But my point stands: To a woman like Catelyn, "good" = "wide." I can see Catelyn seeing normal hips and Jaime seeing narrow ones, or Catelyn seeing wide hips and Jaime seeing normal ones. But one extreme to the other, you'll have to forgive me, is a little hard to swallow, different context or not.

I don't think it's that clear cut, though.  Catelyn specifically thinks "wide" when observing the Crakehall-descended Freys while thinking that they're also large-breasted and big boned.  This overall description doesn't match, Jeyne, which leads me to believe we're talking about different body types.  When thinking about Jeyne Catelyn thinks "good" hips which may also mean wide, but also may not.

[Dr. Pepper]

Let's not forget that Sybell Spicer arrived at Riverrun with two daughters and she appears to only leave with one.

[Random person in the North]

Catelyn is seeing what she wants to see.

I'm pretty convinced that Jeyne taken from Riverrun is real.  She shows emotion and defiance - a fake Jeyne would have no reason to and - for this Jeyne to be fake - her mother would have to be in on it too.  Since Jeyne's mother had been plotting with Tywin from the start she'd be playing an even stupider game than Balon Greyjoy if she thinks there is anything to gain from hiding a real Jeyne Westerling  away at this stage.

[Apple Martini]

oba, on 24 April 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

I don't think it's that clear cut, though.  Catelyn specifically thinks "wide" when observing the Crakehall-descended Freys while thinking that they're also large-breasted and big boned.  This overall description doesn't match, Jeyne, which leads me to believe we're talking about different body types.  When thinking about Jeyne Catelyn thinks "good" hips which may also mean wide, but also may not.

For like the third time, for Catelyn, "wide" is inherent when it comes to good hips to bear children. It doesn't matter that the word itself isn't used, because it's implied by the statement that she has good hips. If I say, "That was a good slice of cake," do I have to also say that it was delicious in order for that meaning to be conveyed? What makes a slice of cake good? Presumably its flavor. What, to Catelyn, makes hips good for carrying kids? Width.

[oba]

Serie, on 24 April 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Have you noticed how's this particular phrase is written in italics? in my ASOS version at least its like that....

Yes, the phrase is italicized in the same manner that other POV character's thoughts are italicized when they're thinking a particular statement as opposed to the reader viewing a scene through their eyes.  Other italicized thoughts in the same chapter:

Quote

To yield, she thought, to make a peace.

Quote

Tell me what I should do.

Quote

Bran and Rickon too, and Mother, and Brandon so long ago.

I'll certainly yield to your experience regarding hip observations in real life, as, despite being a father myself, I don't recall ever having a conversation regarding my wife's (or anyone else's) hips and their relative effectiveness in terms of ease of childbearing.

[oba]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

For like the third time, for Catelyn, "wide" is inherent when it comes to good hips to bear children. It doesn't matter that the word itself isn't used, because it's implied by the statement that she has good hips. If I say, "That was a good slice of cake," do I have to also say that it was delicious in order for that meaning to be conveyed? What makes a slice of cake good? Presumably its flavor. What, to Catelyn, makes hips good for carrying kids? Width.

For like the third time, I'm saying I don't agree with you that Catelyn is necessarily equating good with wide.  I'd like to think we're entitled to our own opinions on the matter.  Unless you're actually the author in which case I've got a lot of other questions I'd love to ask you.