67 replies to this topic

[Lady Hodor]

Ahh I'd love it if a baby Robb rose to snatch Winterfell out from under the Bolton's feet!

[Lord Damian]

There is a reason women have curbed hips and men do not, Women bring children into the world. Cat would know this since she herself had brought 5 children into this World. This would make her and expert. Good child bearing hips means space for the baby to grow and come out into the world without complication. Apple Martini is dead on. As far as Jaime's opinion, he sees and comments to himself and us something different. Jaime is not stupid, he is not so much infatuated with Cersei anymore, he is speaking his mind. Jaime sees "Jeyne" differently than Cat. Not just because of the fact he is a man, but the hips, Jaime said specifically, "Narrow". Jeyne has to be switched.

[Apple Martini]

OK, here's the running list of oddities and points.

1. The biggest being, the hips. Catelyn mentions them as being good (wide) and Jaime sees them as narrow. Catelyn has a reason to look at Jeyne's hips and make note of them. Jaime, near as I can tell, has none. Apart from the discrepancy, I don't see why Jaime would make a note of her hips specifically. Catelyn also rather grudgingly admits that Jeyne is very pretty, while Jaime is decidedly unimpressed.

2. The Westerlings are short a girl, as someone said. They have four, two boys and two girls. One boy is presumed dead at the Twins, and the other is mentioned by Sybell to Jaime as being there with her. No specific mention or sighting of the other daughter. The other daughter is younger than Jeyne and would be about 13 or so now. If Jaime saw what he thought was a 15-to-16-year-old girl with narrow hips, it could have been a tall 13-year-old who hadn't hit puberty yet. The use of another family member would also account for the girl's emotion and her otherwise normal resemblance to Jeyne.

3. Yes, it assumes that Sybell was playing Tywin/the Lannisters. People are eager to assume that she lied to the Starks, so why are they taking her word here at any higher value? Tywin already snubbed the Westerlings in the past when it came to marriage proposals, and the Spicers are Maggy the Frog's descendents. No reason for them to want to help the Lannisters, especially when, at the time, Robb was winning. Same thing with the moon tea — "Well Sybell was lying to Jeyne but obviously telling the truth to Tywin and Jaime." Based on what? Far as I can tell, Sybell has the best of both worlds: hefty marriage contracts with the Lannisters and a possible heir to the North, or at least a rallying point in Robb's queen.

4. We haven't had any POV in Riverrun since Catelyn left it. It's been essentially a blackout. No way to know for sure what's going on or what people are planning.

5. The Blackfish tells Jaime that he swore to defend Robb's queen. Which obviously means that at brass tacks, he'd take off and leave her. Right?

6. "Jeyne" shreds her clothing and covers her face. Jaime assumes it's in mourning. But shredding the clothes would hide an ill fit (they weren't made for her), and covering her face would keep the Westermen from recognizing that it isn't her.

7. If this is true, we have one common Jeyne pretending to be a noble, and one noble Jeyne off pretending to be a commoner. The symmetry is just darling.

The hips may be the biggest issue but they're not the only one. There's something rotten in Denmark.

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 April 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[Serie]

@oba:
oh, thanks about clearing out the italics thing. I'm so paranoid with all the theories and hidden meanings that I thought it actually might meant something

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Dr. Pepper, on 24 April 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Let's not forget that Sybell Spicer arrived at Riverrun with two daughters and she appears to only leave with one.

Whhaaaaaattt?

Can someone tell me where I can find the introduction of the Westerlings in the story where she has two daughters, or just quote it for me because this little tidbit escaped my notice ENTIRELY.

ETA: Frantically searching through the Cat chapters in aSoS. I have no life

Edited by RevengeOfTheStarks, 24 April 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[Lord Damian]

Motivation to pull a deception on Jaime, the Freys and Lannisters are simple.  Sybilla just lost her son by murder, she has been scared by violation of guest rights too. So, Lets say, the potion, moontea, Tansy or whateaver Sybilla was using failed, or Jeyne caught on or jeyne simply forgot to drink it one day and or stopped altogether. Jeyne, finds out she is pregnant right before, during or after the Red Wedding. Her family is held up under seige in Riverrun, Word comes that Tywin is dead. Sybilla's queen daughter is pregnant with an heir to a large Kingdom. The main boogey-man (Tywin of Castamere fame) has died, making retribution for this pregnancy seem less frightening. What would you do? Also note, the Blackfish is in command and is charge of Jeyne's protection. What could Lady Westerling do even if she wanted to?

[Serie]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 24 April 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Whhaaaaaattt?

Can someone tell me where I can find the introduction of the Westerlings in the story where she has two daughters, or just quote it for me because this little tidbit escaped my notice ENTIRELY.

ETA: Frantically searching through the Cat chapters in aSoS. I have no life

I give you Elenya:

Quote

"The children of Lord Gawen and Lady Sybell. Ser Raynald Westerling." The seashell knight smiled beneath a bushy mustache. Young, lean, rough-hewn, he had good teeth and a thick mop of chestnut hair. "Elenya." The little girl did a quick curtsy. "Rollarn Westerling, my squire." The boy started to kneel, saw no one else was kneeling, and bowed instead."

ETA: I have created a super efficient search application especially designed for ASOIAF. I may don't have life as well but I have the application

Edited by Serie, 24 April 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Apple Martini]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 24 April 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Whhaaaaaattt?

Can someone tell me where I can find the introduction of the Westerlings in the story where she has two daughters, or just quote it for me because this little tidbit escaped my notice ENTIRELY.

ETA: Frantically searching through the Cat chapters in aSoS. I have no life

Her name's Elenya. She was definitely supposed to be at Riverrun with Sybell, Jeyne and Rollam, the younger brother. Yet when Jaime visits, he sees Sybell and "Jeyne" and is told about Rollam being there too, but no Elenya. Funny, yes?

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 April 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[red fork]

nice thread folks - fwiw, I think it's cut-and-dried that the english expression "child bearing hips" means "wide hips". It's like "beanpole" means "skinny bloke". It just means that; for an author to use the metaphor means they are implying the description.

on a slight tangent - isn't Jeyne Westerling related to the maegi ("maggi") who foretold Cersei's demise at the hands of the "younger more beautiful queen"? Nice touch if, despite all the hints at Dany, that turns out to be Jeyne.

[Apple Martini]

red fork, on 24 April 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

on a slight tangent - isn't Jeyne Westerling related to the maegi ("maggi") who foretold Cersei's demise at the hands of the "younger more beautiful queen"? Nice touch if, despite all the hints at Dany, that turns out to be Jeyne.

Yes. Maggy is Jeyne's great-grandmother. I don't think that Jeyne is that specific queen, but Maggy's descendents have no reason to like or trust the Lannisters. Seeing as Cersei tossed a potion in Maggy's eyes and Maggy cursed her.

[Faint]

You know, that would be a nice twist. Jeyne Westerling being the younger queen. It fits a whole lot better than Sansa and her phantom kingdom.

Edit: Actually, the more I think about it, it really would fit quite well. I can even see how the whole prophecy can come together in Casterly Rock with Cersei, Jaime, Jeyne, and all the other players there.

Edited by Faint, 24 April 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Errant Bard]

Apple Martini, on 24 April 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Yet when Jaime visits, he sees Sybell and "Jeyne" and is told about Rollam being there too, but no Elenya. Funny, yes?

Err, considering that Jeyne was Robb's wife and Rollam Robb's squire while Elenya was Robb's nothing, no, not really strange.

[Ser Hippie]

Reliable sources inform me she's masquerading as an attractive nurse and amateur surgeon from Volantis. More info when I have it.

[Apple Martini]

Errant Bard, on 24 April 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Err, considering that Jeyne was Robb's wife and Rollam Robb's squire while Elenya was Robb's nothing, no, not really strange.

And by that time Robb was dead, so what's your point? Elenya was also at Riverrun and is the only one of the Westerling children not seen or named when Jaime was there.

[David Selig]

Someone posted a few months back that at a signing GRRM confirmed that the discrepancies between the descriptions of Jeyne's hips is an error and not an intentional hint of switch. I have no idea how reliable this report is

[Apple Martini]

David Selig, on 24 April 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Someone posted a few months back that at a signing GRRM confirmed that the discrepancies between the descriptions of Jeyne's hips is an error and not an intentional hint of switch. I have no idea how reliable this report is

I saw that too, but I haven't seen anything concrete since then. Nothing about it in the SSMs, where Martin just says that "the Westerlings" are not a monolithic group (i.e. some have different motives than others) and refuses to comment on whether Jeyne was a plant.

[Dr. Pepper]

David Selig, on 24 April 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Someone posted a few months back that at a signing GRRM confirmed that the discrepancies between the descriptions of Jeyne's hips is an error and not an intentional hint of switch. I have no idea how reliable this report is

Even if the hips description was an error, it's a minor one compared to Elenya never being seen or mentioned by name when Jaime comes to Riverrun.  Two daughters arriving and only one appearing to be leaving is too big for it to have been an unintentional error.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

hiccupzz, on 24 April 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Hello!  

Anyone else reckon Jeyne Westerling was switched and isn't at Riverrun anymore?  Catelyn always described her as having wide hips, "good for bearing children", and also being pretty but when Jaime takes Riverrun and questions her he describes her as plain and having narrow hips, or something to that effect.  

Anyone reckon she escaped?  Possibly with the Blackfish?  And maybe she's pregnant?  I'd love to see what would happen if she is!

Also apologies if this topic has already been posted, I couldn't see it though!

well either way, she's alive.  

i think she was switched.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Oh nice! hadn't thought about this one, very interesting posibilities there if she was switched. But about her being pregnant with Robb's child, i don't know, i find it unlikely given all that jazz about Manderly, Davos and Rickon.

[Jayce]

We certainly need some more information from this area of the world.