33 replies to this topic

[wasabi loco]

I'm a new member but have been reading threads here for months.

I've really enjoyed the discussions concerning whether or not Jon is actually the son of Ned's sister, Leana.

(please forgive my spelling because I am not going back to look everything up)

This was my opinion until I finished my second read.

My current opinion is that in fact Jon is indeed the son of Ned Stark.  There are various claims that Jon is the son of Willa, a milk nurse, from house of Dorne.  I think this is a misdirect.

Here are some facts.

Ned killed Arthur Dane.
Arthur Dane's wife's name was Ashara.
Ashara killed herself over a broken heart.  She was in love with Ned Stark.
Ned Dane was milk brother to Jon Stark.  Willa was wet nurse to both of them. Ned Dane's mother was "dry".
Ned Dane has purple eyes and light blonde hair (Targarayen attributes).

So, my theory is:
Jon is son to Ashara and Ed Stark.  Ashara was already married. She killed herself over the shame/heartbreak.
The relationship between Arthur Dane and Ed Stark was hereafter poisoned and was the real reason behind Ned killing Arthur in battle.
Ned being so noble and proud, etc was shamed terribly by the whole thing. That's why he gets so ballistic over any discussion of Jon's mother.
Willa nursed Jon after Ashara's suicide.
When Leana died she made Ned promise to protect her son (the one she had with Raegor.)  Ned Stark put Leana's son in the care of the Danes to be nursed by Willa along with Jon.
Ned Stark promised Leana to that he would see that Ned Danes heritage was kept secret to keep him from being killed outright by Barratheons, Lannisters, take your pick.
Ned Dane's mother (un-named Lady Dane) adopted him. That's the real reason she was "dry" and needed a wet nurse.

The most critical point of all is Ned Dane's purple eyes and light blonde hair. All Targarayens seem to have those traits and no one else that I can recall.

So, what do you think?

[theguyfromtheVale]

Ashara was Arthur's sister, not his wife. Kingsguards are not allowed to marry.

Arthur Dayne also had typical Valyrian silver hair and purple eyes, and Ashara had dark hair and purple eyes.

Also, the Dornish have a more relaxed attitude towards infidelity and bastardry (think of the Sand snakes). So, really, I don't see it.

[nitpick]also, the name is 'Dayne'[\nitpick]

Edited by theguyfromtheVale, 24 April 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[wasabi loco]

You got me on the point about Arthur Dayne but that doesn't really change the rest. Ned Dayne says that Ashira is his aunt.  I don't remember anywhere that it's said whether it's by marriage or not.  That's a small point that doesn't change my theory.

Ned Stark and Arthur Dayne could still have been at serious odds over Ned knocking up Ashira even if it's only because she's his sister.

But in any case, that still leaves Ashira committing suicide over Ned Stark.

The part about Ned Dayne's mother being "dry" is just too big of a clue in my book.  That and the fact that Ned Dayne and Jon Snow being "milk brothers".

It's too reminiscent of the whole baby swap up at the wall with Gilly's baby and Mance Raydar's baby to protect it.

I don't recall reading that the Dayne's had purple eyes and light blonde hair but even if that's so it just makes it easier to hide.

There were too many people around to not have noticed that Ned Stark really hadn't knocked anybody up.

There's also the fact that Arthur Dayne was one of Prince Rhaegar's closes friends.

Edited by wasabi loco, 24 April 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[David Selig]

Edric Dayne is way too young to be Lianna's son. He was 12 in ASOS, and Lianna had been dead for 16 years at this point.

[Ser Malthred Stark]

Most of these points were my first impression (and current) of Jon's parentage as well.

[wasabi loco]

theguyfromtheVale, on 24 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Ashara was Arthur's sister, not his wife. Kingsguards are not allowed to marry.

Arthur Dayne also had typical Valyrian silver hair and purple eyes, and Ashara had dark hair and purple eyes.

Also, the Dornish have a more relaxed attitude towards infidelity and bastardry (think of the Sand snakes). So, really, I don't see it.

[nitpick]also, the name is 'Dayne'[\nitpick]

I don't know where you are getting your info on the Dornish folk having Valaryan features..

You should reread the section where Tyrion first meets the Red Viper.  The facts concerning the appearance of the Dornish people is covered extensively. Nowhere is silver hair and purple eyes mentioned in that section.

David Seleg.

If you say so.  I don't recall that. I just recall Ed Dayne saying he was Jon's milk brother. He made it sound like they were contemporaries. If what you say is true, then of course I can't be right. I just don't know where you got this info.

[David Selig]

Ned Dayne told Arya “I’m only twelve.” in the same chapter in which he mentioned he and Jon were milk brothers. IMO he didn't make it sound like he and Jon were contemporaries, he just stated that his wet nurse was also Jon's mother.

Edited by David Selig, 30 April 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[matt b]

wasabi loco, on 29 April 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

I don't know where you are getting your info on the Dornish folk having Valaryan features..

You should reread the section where Tyrion first meets the Red Viper.  The facts concerning the appearance of the Dornish people is covered extensively. Nowhere is silver hair and purple eyes mentioned in that section.

Nobody ever said the Dornish have Valyrian features, however it's been fairly well established that the Daynes do.

[Roxane De]

Having a wet-nurse was also quite common in Middle-Age/Renaissance, when noble people can afford it to be done by other people, why should they breastfeed their children?

[Giants bane]

It is very well established that the Daynes have targ features. But barristan also says the lady dayne killed herself because of a still birth that was supposedly Ned's. Also Ned did not kill Arthur Dayne alone it was almost the reverse until (his name escapes me right now.) Lord Reed came and basically saved him. Reed is the true key to Jon's heritage. When he finally leaves the swamp we will know the truth.

[GreenDream]

I find this topic very interesting, and the main reason why I refuse to believe that Jon is dead.

Throughout the series, there are a few different paths GRRM leads us on, relating to Jon's parentage. First, Eddard says Jon's mother was Wylla, then there are numerous hints about Rhaegar/Lyanna, then there is the bit about Ashara Dayne (compounded by what Jojen and Meera tell Bran)

Then also, the interesting side note in aDWD about a fisherman's daughter near the Three Sisters/White Harbor (Davos POV when he goes to treat with Manderly) "Ned Stark was here?- - At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance....  ...To get home...Stark had to ... find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters... They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn"  And also the little joke Stannis makes to Jon saying, "You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Ned Stark father you on some fishwife?"

This comment is mentioned at least 3 times throughout A Dance with Dragons. The main, reason I would give this theory or path, if you will, merit, is that it actually names the bastard "Jon Snow", but that could just be because White Harbor is a bannerman to Winterfell, as well as the sisters, I believe.

Even with this new evidence, and the hints left by Jojen and Meera pointing towards Ashara, and Jon's milk brother pointing towards Wylla, I still firmly hold on to the belief that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Here are some interesting quotes I've found in a Game of Thrones upon my current re-read that support my theory.

1. In a Game of Thrones, when King Robert visits Lyanna's tomb, Ned reflects,

"He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses....When he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black."

I can't help but think that the roses might be the ones that Rhaegar had given her at the tourney at Harrenhal.

2. Later in the book there is a part in Eddard's POV when meeting with Catelyn and LittleFinger.

"He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once."

This makes me think that maybe Lyanna had asked Robert to be merciful in regards to Rhaegar, or perhaps Elia and the children? Not sure what she would have pleaded with him for otherwise.

3. When Eddard is thinking about sailing to Dragonstone to question Stannis, he tells himself,

" And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

I take this to be about Jon's parentage. The only closely guarded secret Eddard hides from even his wife. This tells me who ever Jon's parents are, it is a dangerous secret. So I have a hard time believing it is only Wylla or some fisherman's daughter, or even Ashara Dayne.

4. Ned later reflects about Lyanna telling him that Robert could never be faithful, that it wasn't in his nature, even if he did love her. (paraphrase) I believe this shows that Lyanna is not naive, and also maybe, that she had reserved feelings for Robert.

5. When Ned confronts Cersei, he asks why she hates Robert, and she replies that on their wedding night he called her "Lyanna". Then it says,

"Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. (and then he says) I do not know which of you I pity most."

I take this to mean that he feels sorry for his friend Robert, whom Lyanna had no love for, and also for Cersei who was wronged by Robert's love for Lyanna.

BTW it mentions the purple eyes of Ashara Dayne when Jojen and Meera are talking about the tourney at Harrenhal. I believe it was in a Feast for Crows. When they are marching towards the wall after escaping Winterfell.

I hope I didn't wander off topic too much.

Edited by GreenDream, 10 May 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[Lord Manwoody]

GreenDream, on 08 May 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

4. Ned later reflects about Lyanna telling him that Robert could never be faithful, that it wasn't in his nature, even if he did love her. (paraphrase) I believe this shows that Lyanna is not naive, and also maybe, that she had reserved feelings for Robert.

In relation to this one, almost immediately after the part you reference, after the girl with Robert's child tells Ned to tell Robert how beautiful the child is, there is this...

"I will," Ned had promised her.  That was his curse.  Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows.  He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.


What price was that?  If Jon Snow is Ned's bastard by some known (or unknown) woman, then what is the explanation for this and other memories where Ned seems to place supreme significance upon Lyanna's death and whatever he promised her at that moment.

On the other hand, in light of this and other hints, if Jon is truly the bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Ned promised his sister that he would keep the boy safe, the cost would have been great.  First, there is Ned's honor.  A man like Ned placed high value on his honor and having the world think he fathered a bastard would not be easy for him.  Second, he had to lie (again related to honor) to everyone, even those he loved most...his wife, his children, his best friend Robert, etc.  Ned knew the truth of Jon's lineage would likely mean death for the boy.  Aside from the obvious threat to the crown, think of Robert's hatred for everything Targaryen.  Third, the cost of the relationship with his wife and family.  The tension Jon's presence created between Ned and Catelyn is obvious in the books.

What explanation do we have for "the price he paid" if Jon is just a run-of-the-mill bastard fathered by Ned Stark?  Also, if Ned did, in fact, father a bastard and they switched the children, that's another cost.  He would have left his own child, likely never to see again, with someone else so he could protect Lyanna's child.  So, if he did father a bastard, it only makes the price paid more.

[the_bloodravens_boss]

just to add on...

if R+L=J, this obviously means jon snow is half targaryen.  Think about Ned's feelings towards Dany in AGOT, he is pretty non-chalant about a pure targaryen being alive, do you think it is a ploy to Robert to show how he thinks young targaryen's should live and not be hunted?  protecting jon snow is really one of the main reasons Ned exists in the story, why not indirectly protect Dany too?

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

I don't even know how they are milk brothers, Edric Dayne & Jon Snow.... Edric was 12 during A Storm of Swords.

John was older than 12 at that time, he was already at the Wall.

[Arya Targaryen]

M, on 01 August 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

I don't even know how they are milk brothers, Edric Dayne & Jon Snow.... Edric was 12 during A Storm of Swords.

John was older than 12 at that time, he was already at the Wall.

They are milk brothers because Wylla was their wetnurse. She could have children of her own between Jon and Ned, so she would still have enough milk. Is it what you mean?

And I don't think Ned fathered a child with Ashara at all. Barristan only said "Stark", that could mean Brandon as well. And he was exactly the type. I think Ned loved her and wanted to marry her to save her honor (and maybe raise Brandon's bastard as his own, giving him a name), but Brandon died and Ned had to marry to Cat. It would definitely explain the rumours about Ned and Ashara. Maybe her suicide as well.

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

Arya Targaryen, on 01 August 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

They are milk brothers because Wylla was their wetnurse. She could have children of her own between Jon and Ned, so she would still have enough milk. Is it what you mean?

Not really... I guess maybe I don't understand the definition of a "milk brother" What i was trying to say is that Jon Snow is about 3-4 years OLDER than Edric Dayne, so they obviously were not being nursed by Wylla at the same time...

Maybe they don't have to be nursed at the same time to be "milk brothers" but it clearly indicates that the OP's theory of Edric Dayne being Rhaegar & Lyanna's child, can't be, he is too young... And Edric Dayne also can not be Ned + Ashara's because he is too young...

KWIM?

[Arya Targaryen]

Milk brother IMO means they have the same woman's milk. It doesn't have to be at the same time. Anyway. Ned Dayne says he and Jon are milkbrothers, and he clearly knows Jon is much older, since he never met him at Starfall, so they couldn't have been fed by Wylla at the same time. The only thing Ned Dayne doesn't know is that Jon is not Wylla's biological son (probably). But she could have been his wetnurse anyway.

ETA: Ned Dayne is definitely not Lyanna's or Rhaegar's, he is exactly who he is. Jon is R+L, 99,99%.

Edited by Arya Targaryen, 01 August 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[The Color of Frost]

Lord Manwoody, on 11 June 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

"I will," Ned had promised her.  That was his curse.  Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows.  He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.


What price was that?  If Jon Snow is Ned's bastard by some known (or unknown) woman, then what is the explanation for this and other memories where Ned seems to place supreme significance upon Lyanna's death and whatever he promised her at that moment.

This is something that has always stuck out to me in the R+L=J theory. As you said, the promise kept would have to be a pretty significant promise if Ned considers a price paid to keep it. What's most poignant to me in that excerpt is the comment that "Ned Stark kept his vows". It would have to be something that is against his very nature and as well as know his nature is to be extremely loyal to those around him. The one thing that is the chink in the armor of his loyalty is fathering a bastard. It's comments like these that make it hard for me to buy into anything else other than R+L=J.

[the Houndini]

"Lord Edric Dayne recounted to Arya Stark that his mother had no milk and so Wylla became his wetnurse, long after Jon Snow had left for theNorth."
taken from Wylla's bio - http://awoiaf.wester...index.php/Wylla

Your theory is cool, but the ages dont really work with a switch of the children. Also according to Barristan Selmy Ashara Dayne gave birth to a stillborn daughter.

I've always wondered which Stark "bedded" Ashara at Harrenhal. As i recall the wording was very vague as none of them were referred to by name only the "Bold Wolf", the "Quiet Wolf" and the "Young Wolf" (Not sure about these exactly) Ive always thought it may have been Benjen that had relations with Ashara (possibly rape???) and the reason Benjen took the Black and joined NW.... (I know thats a LONGSHOT)

[True_lord_of_york]

The guy who made the op needs to read the book. The daynes notoriously had valyrian features even though they are dornish. Just because obyron martell and all the other dornish don't look valerian it doesn't mean a family can't. Also ashara Dayne is most certainly Arthur daynes sister not his wife like do you know anything about the kings guard? But I would very much like to hear Jon is Ned's son with the noble beautiful Dayne girl just as much if not more than Lyanna and rheagar. I think he is the latter though it makes too much sense. All of Ned's children favor they're mothers features excluding arya. The other thing is arya looks like Lyanna and I just see Jon as Lyanna a son