176 replies to this topic

[Grumpy Midget]

Hi everybody!  Longtime lurker here.  Picked up the books after watching the 1st season of the HBO show.

Alright there's something that's been bothering me.  In the world of the books all the characters hold the belief that Robb was some kind of military genius.  But does the evidence really support this belief?  It appears to me that out of his numerous tactical victories on the battlefield, only one of those victories have any sort of strategic impact - the Whispering wood and subsequent relief of the siege of Riverrun.  With this victory, the River lords joined him - essentially doubling the number of troops under his command.  At the same time destroying one of two Lannister armies operating in the field at the time.  Assuming that after subtracting the casualties he had around 18,000 Stark bannermen and that the Tully army was of roughly similar size, that would give him a combined total of 35,000 to 40,000 troops - equal or greater in numbers to what Tywin Lannister had available at the time in Harrenhall.  At no other time during the course of the war would the odds be more in the Starks' favor.

I believe that this point was the zenith of Robb Stark's military career.  After this point everything went downhill for the Starks in terms of the war.  Roose Bolton was left in command of the bulk of the 20,000 northerners who marched south with Robb - basically all the footsloggers after Robb took off with all the cavalry after splitting up at the twins.  Now Roose along with 12,000 to 15,000 of Robb's troops are stuck on the far side of the Trident, unable to cross south to move against King's Landing or rejoin Robb at Riverrun as long as Twyin Lannister remained at Harrenhall.  For the time being they could not contribute meaningfully to the war effort.  The Tully bannermen - roughly half of Robb's forces - are likewise tied down defending their land's against Gregor Clegane's raiders.  Unable to contribute meaningfully to the war as long as Twyin remains at Harrenhall.  This basically left Robb to operate in the West with an all mounted force of around 4,000.  Pretty much the same men that marched with him from the Whispering Wood to the Red Wedding.

At this point Robb's strategy for winning the war is doomed to some variation of "hoping Stannis or Renly take King's landing".  No matter how many victories he wins on the battlefield, no matter how many Lannister cousins he kills, he CANNOT impact the outcome of the war.  He has too few troops with him to seriously threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock, too few troops to hang on to the castles he took.  To make matters worse, most of the talented wartime commanders available to him went west with Robb; Greatjon, Blackfish etc.  Essentially Robb placed himself, with 90% of his talented commanders, with 10% of his available troops, in a backwater theater of operations.  Meanwhile back east, where the outcome of the war was being decided, 90% of Robb's available troops were split between the command of Edmure Tully and Roose Bolton - an inexperienced youth who's so far know only defeat, and an overcautions commander of dubious loyalty.

So what's the verdict?  Do the characters in the books overrate Robb Stark's military genius?  Is it a case of people like Twyin Lannister trying to sooth their own egos knowing that a 16 year old boy gave him a run for his money?  Or maybeis it a case of Robb's reputation being inflated by his untimely death?

[corbon]

Grumpy Midget, on 24 April 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

So what's the verdict?  Do the characters in the books overrate Robb Stark's military genius?  Is it a case of people like Twyin Lannister trying to sooth their own egos knowing that a 16 year old boy gave him a run for his money?  Or maybeis it a case of Robb's reputation being inflated by his untimely death?

Outnumbered, out-equipped, out-financed, but he out-thought and out-fought the Lannisters at every military turn.
He achieved his strategic aims (militarily) and had the Lannisters totally screwed and dancing to his tune (Tywin was forced to try to return to the Westlands to stop Robb, but failed miserably, being beaten off by Edmure with heavy casualties).

You seem to be under the misapprehension that Robb cared about the rest of the war. His only aim was to beat the Lannisters and force them to return his family and let the North (and Riverlands, by default) alone. He isn't particularly interested in who wins the war to sit on the iron throne, just so long as he can get what he wants from the Lannisters and have peace afterwards.

You are also mistaken about the 'backwater theatre'. It was the only theatre that mattered to him - he didn't want KL and even if he took it the Lannisters can just retreat to their powerbase in the West, and it achieved precisely what it was intended to do until Edmure prevented Tywin from returning to the Westerlands... and then the whole not-miliatry Jeyne/Red Wedding thing happened.

His military reputation is not at all inflated.
Its just not the be-all and end-all.

[The King in the South]

Personally I agree 100% that he is overrated. (By both the fans and the people.) I think a lot of it simply comes from the fact that there are not any amazing military commanders throughout the story, and so a "good" one like Robb gets elevated well beyond his level. I mean just look at the competition. (Of course some of it does come from his age and death.)
Tywin: Smart but not strategically sound
Jaime: Hot-headed and impulsive
Roose: Cautious and smart, but not exactly a fighter. (He might actually be better then he gives off, we can't really tell.)
Renly: His one scene of military discussion shows he's not really tactically smart
Stannis: Probably one of the better ones; seems more like a naval commander though
Victarion: Bold, fierce, but we haven't seen him do anything major. It's possible he's a lot better than his intelligence suggests.
Tarly: Probably the best currently on the field. He hasn't lost, but none of his battles have been massive or without advantage. So he's not a Napolean or von Mannestein. Plus a lot of people dislike him.
Theon: Well, he had promise.
Balon: Underrated, (The Greyjoys could have held the north if their fleet hadn't been called back after his death) but still a bit overzealous and suicidal.
Mace: ...Yeah
The Blackfish: One of the better ones out there. Conveinently, he's Robb's chief military advisor.
Edmure: Fierce, but rash.
Dany/Barristan/Jorah: Who? They're off in egypt.

The Past Generation
Ned Stark: Probably the best we've seen yet. Cautious, but knew when to take action, could fight in multiple areas of terrain etc. Being that Robb's his son...
Robert: More of a fighter than a strategy guy. He gets a lot of credit for Ned/the other's work.
Hoster: We simply know he's brutal in his methods, nothing suggest he's spectacular.
Jon: Not much is mentioned. Probably competent but not spectacular.
Rhaegar: Meh.

Others:??? Probably missing a few

So overall I'd say it's a combination of a weak field, his father's legacy, his youth, his popularity (avenging your father's death looks good in a lot of people's eyes) his egregious death and his solid, but not spectacular skill.

[Dr. Pepper]

corbon, on 24 April 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Outnumbered, out-equipped, out-financed, but he out-thought and out-fought the Lannisters at every military turn.
He achieved his strategic aims (militarily) and had the Lannisters totally screwed and dancing to his tune (Tywin was forced to try to return to the Westlands to stop Robb, but failed miserably, being beaten off by Edmure with heavy casualties).

You seem to be under the misapprehension that Robb cared about the rest of the war. His only aim was to beat the Lannisters and force them to return his family and let the North (and Riverlands, by default) alone. He isn't particularly interested in who wins the war to sit on the iron throne, just so long as he can get what he wants from the Lannisters and have peace afterwards.

You are also mistaken about the 'backwater theatre'. It was the only theatre that mattered to him - he didn't want KL and even if he took it the Lannisters can just retreat to their powerbase in the West, and it achieved precisely what it was intended to do until Edmure prevented Tywin from returning to the Westerlands... and then the whole not-miliatry Jeyne/Red Wedding thing happened.

His military reputation is not at all inflated.
Its just not the be-all and end-all.

Just to tack on, he pretty much proved that Tywin's legacy was nothing but a bunch of hot air.  He beat Tywin's forces at every turn.  Robb's major military blunder was to have not fully informed Edmure what exactly he was trying to achieve when he left Riverrun.  If Edmure had followed the orders, Tywin would have been trapped in the Westerlands and would not have been able to ally with the Tyrells to take Stannis' forces in the rear.

[Grumpy Midget]

corbon, on 24 April 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Outnumbered, out-equipped, out-financed, but he out-thought and out-fought the Lannisters at every military turn.
He achieved his strategic aims (militarily) and had the Lannisters totally screwed and dancing to his tune (Tywin was forced to try to return to the Westlands to stop Robb, but failed miserably, being beaten off by Edmure with heavy casualties).

You seem to be under the misapprehension that Robb cared about the rest of the war. His only aim was to beat the Lannisters and force them to return his family and let the North (and Riverlands, by default) alone. He isn't particularly interested in who wins the war to sit on the iron throne, just so long as he can get what he wants from the Lannisters and have peace afterwards.

You are also mistaken about the 'backwater theatre'. It was the only theatre that mattered to him - he didn't want KL and even if he took it the Lannisters can just retreat to their powerbase in the West, and it achieved precisely what it was intended to do until Edmure prevented Tywin from returning to the Westerlands... and then the whole not-miliatry Jeyne/Red Wedding thing happened.

His military reputation is not at all inflated.
Its just not the be-all and end-all.

Robb Stark lost the war regardless of whether the Red Wedding happened or not.  Even assuming that everything went smoothly and Robb managed to retake Winterfel without any trouble, by that time Riverrun would be back under Lannister siege or have already fallen.  Then Robb would have almost the exact same situation as he had when he started the war, except he'd have fewer men than he started the war with, while the Lannisters would have their strength agumented by the Tyrells.  The only thing that the Red Wedding did was hasten the inevitable.  Robb's fate was sealed by the outcome of the Battle of Blackwater.  In hindsight none of his victories in the westerlands had any impact on that outcome.  Twyin trying to follow Robb west was his one real blunder that could have cost him the war.  He could have just left Robb to his glorified cavalry raids.  Robb didn't have the manpower to take Lannisport/Casterly Rock, and he didn't have the manpower to keep what castles he did take.  Luckily Twyin was saved from his blunder by good ole Edmure.

Edited by Grumpy Midget, 24 April 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[Grumpy Midget]

Dr. Pepper, on 24 April 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Just to tack on, he pretty much proved that Tywin's legacy was nothing but a bunch of hot air.  He beat Tywin's forces at every turn.  Robb's major military blunder was to have not fully informed Edmure what exactly he was trying to achieve when he left Riverrun.  If Edmure had followed the orders, Tywin would have been trapped in the Westerlands and would not have been able to ally with the Tyrells to take Stannis' forces in the rear.

Sure he was undefeated in the field.  But with the exception of Whispering Wood he was winning tactical victories that had no impact on the ultimate outcome of the war, while his subordinates were commiting blunders that was costing him the war. (Edmure at the Red Fork; having 1/3 of his original Northern army destroyed at Duskendale)

Edited by Grumpy Midget, 24 April 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[thetitansbastard]

Reached Living Legend status - by definition can't be overrated

[Dr. Pepper]

Grumpy Midget, on 24 April 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Sure he was undefeated in the field.  But with the exception of Whispering Wood he was winning tactical victories that had no impact on the ultimate outcome of the war, while his subordinates were commiting blunders that was costing him the war. (Edmure at the Red Fork; having 1/3 of his original Northern army destroyed at Duskendale)

What war are you talking about?  Robb was never in the war for the Iron Throne.  All of his tactics were strategically sound.  The only major blunder was in not keeping Edmure informed about how his strategy was the keep Tywin in the Westerlands.  That set off everything, including whatever alliance came about with Roose and Tywin.  Before Edmure's screw up, the Lannisters were goners and Robb's army was holding pretty and they had strategically sound plans to expel the Ironborn from the North.  There's not even any evidence that a Tyrell/Lannister force would have defeated Robb in the field and Roose never would have had an opportunity to scheme with Tywin without the Edmure/Red Fork blunder.

[Grumpy Midget]

thetitansbastard, on 24 April 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Reached Living Legend status - by definition can't be overrated

Yes though he does this via the Hannibal Barca / Robert E Lee effect. (Fighting a losing war against long odds.  Which becomes romanticized causing later people to overlook their flaws/mistakes)

[Grumpy Midget]

Dr. Pepper, on 24 April 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

What war are you talking about?  Robb was never in the war for the Iron Throne.  All of his tactics were strategically sound.  The only major blunder was in not keeping Edmure informed about how his strategy was the keep Tywin in the Westerlands.  That set off everything, including whatever alliance came about with Roose and Tywin.  Before Edmure's screw up, the Lannisters were goners and Robb's army was holding pretty and they had strategically sound plans to expel the Ironborn from the North.  There's not even any evidence that a Tyrell/Lannister force would have defeated Robb in the field and Roose never would have had an opportunity to scheme with Tywin without the Edmure/Red Fork blunder.

What war ARE you talking about?  Robb was barely able to fight Twyin to a standstill while Twyin had to fight a two front war with Renly/Stannis in his back.  How's he gonna maintain the North's independence against the Lannisters and Tyrells combined?  Or are you so delusional as to believe that Roose Bolton and the Freys would betray Robb Stark when Robb was WINNING?

Edited by Grumpy Midget, 24 April 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[mor2]

@Grumpy Midget, in one word NO.

After people get past the stark fanboism they see there is not much to Rob military genuineness. Starting with Robb initial move when following his father arrest, at which point he knew nothing of the reason that led to it, he had no end game plan(unlike Tywin), he just rushed south to save dady.(after all that talk about justice)

Then he got really lucky that the baratheon brothers rebelled as well, and lucky again when his mother managed to convince the freys to give him passage i.e. the victory(without the freys he would have been lost, trying to force passage over the crossing). The frey who already given their liege lord the finger, who then lost at riverrun. The freys who didnt participated in the previous war, only joining the wining side in the end, they joinied some boy who has never fought a battle and is outnumbered, has no plan and outnumbered by half of the realm.... *suspension of disbelief*

Then he used his advantage and "won" 2 victories, in both his forces outnumbered the the lannister forces by few times. Then he returned his only card against the ironborn and decided that waiting for an asnwer from the iron born its fulish, it's obvious that they would agree to HIS plan(some boy who won 2 battles) and rush into the wasterlands(where the was owned few years ago). Again he had no idea how to get there, but luckily his wolf found him a super duper secret passage into the mountains, that no one knew about, allowing him to bypass the lannister forces and fall on some greenboys at night winning his third victory. Then he manged to ransake some countryside holdings and marry with the first girl he sleept with, breaking his promise to the freys who gave him his victory... yes.. briliant.

Edited by mor2, 24 April 2012 - 11:11 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Grumpy Midget, on 24 April 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

What war ARE you talking about?  Robb was barely able to fight Twyin to a standstill while Twyin had to fight a two front war with Renly/Stannis in his back.  How's he gonna maintain the North's independence against the Lannisters and Tyrells combined?  Or are you so delusional as to believe that Roose Bolton and the Freys would betray Robb Stark when Robb was WINNING?

Sigh, I'll repeat myself one more time.

Tywin was not fighting a two front war.  Stannis was off on Dragonstone.  Renly had his forces at a standstill in the Reach where there strategy was to basically lay siege of King's Landing from afar and allow the Lannisters to weaken themselves.  Tywin was only fighting Robb and he was losing!  Tywin was losing until Robb's major blunder with Edmure and Red Fork.  It was a MAJOR blunder because it enabled Tywin to escape from his losing position and ally with the Tyrell's.  I am under no delusion that Roose and the Frey's would have betrayed Robb if this one major blunder hadn't placed Robb in a position were he might actually be beat.

Robb had a sound plan to get past Moat Cailin to take out the Iron Born after the Red Wedding.  That's why he sent an envoy up to the Neck with both his written 'fake' plans and his verbal real plans so everything could be set into place when his force left the Twins.  He had Manderly building a heavy fleet to protect their borders.  Edmure, the Blackfish, and the Frey's had control of their lands and since they were allied with Robb, they would hold the Riverlands to hold a Tyrell/Lannister force from attempting to break through the Neck and Moat Cailin, a place that has NEVER been able to be defeated from the south.  Utilizing his allies in the Riverlands, the oncoming winter, the Neck, Moat Cailin and Manderly's fleet is how he would hold and maintain the North's independence.

Robb was not a good political strategist.  I'd want him on my war council, I wouldn't want him on my small council.

[Grumpy Midget]

mor2, on 24 April 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

@Grumpy Midget, in one word NO.

After people get past the stark fanboism they see there is not much to Rob military genuineness. Starting with Robb initial move when following his father arrest, at which point he knew nothing of the reason that led to it, he had no end game plan(unlike Tywin), he just rushed south to save dady.(after all that talk about justice)

Then he got really lucky that the baratheon brothers rebelled as well, and lucky again when his mother managed to convince the freys to give him passage i.e. the victory(without the freys he would have been lost, trying to force passage over the crossing). The frey who already given their liege lord the finger, who then lost at riverrun. The freys who didnt participated in the previous war, only joining the wining side in the end, they joinied some boy who has never fought a battle and is outnumbered, has no plan and outnumbered by half of the realm.... *suspension of disbelief*

Then he used his advantage and "won" 2 victories, in both he outnumbered the the lannister forces by few times. Then he returned his only card against the ironborn and didnt even waited for the Ironborn answer and jumped into the wasterlands. Again with no idea how to get there, but luckily his his wolf found him a super duper secret passage, that no one knew about, into the mountains, allowing him to bypass the lannister forces and fall on some greenboys at night winning his third victory. Then he manged to ransake some countryside holdings and  marry with the first girl he sleept, breaking his promis to the freys who gave him his victory....

Actually you have to give him credit for the first of his victories.  Dividing his force up - the bulk going along the kingsroad under Bolton as a diversion, while he took a smaller mounted force to surprise Jaime at Riverrun was genius.  Unfortunately for him, repeating this formula (him going leading lightning quick raids with the cavalry, while leaving the infantry under the command of his bannermen) did not yield him any more successes on the scale of the Whispering Wood.  His fault, in my opinion, was that he did not learn to effectively utilize ALL of his resources, not just the elite, fast-moving mounted portion of his army.

[The King in the South]

Dr. Pepper, on 24 April 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Sigh, I'll repeat myself one more time.

Tywin was not fighting a two front war.  Stannis was off on Dragonstone.  Renly had his forces at a standstill in the Reach where there strategy was to basically lay siege of King's Landing from afar and allow the Lannisters to weaken themselves.  Tywin was only fighting Robb and he was losing!  Tywin was losing until Robb's major blunder with Edmure and Red Fork.  It was a MAJOR blunder because it enabled Tywin to escape from his losing position and ally with the Tyrell's.  I am under no delusion that Roose and the Frey's would have betrayed Robb if this one major blunder hadn't placed Robb in a position were he might actually be beat.

Robb had a sound plan to get past Moat Cailin to take out the Iron Born after the Red Wedding.  That's why he sent an envoy up to the Neck with both his written 'fake' plans and his verbal real plans so everything could be set into place when his force left the Twins.  He had Manderly building a heavy fleet to protect their borders.  Edmure, the Blackfish, and the Frey's had control of their lands and since they were allied with Robb, they would hold the Riverlands to hold a Tyrell/Lannister force from attempting to break through the Neck and Moat Cailin, a place that has NEVER been able to be defeated from the south.  Utilizing his allies in the Riverlands, the oncoming winter, the Neck, Moat Cailin and Manderly's fleet is how he would hold and maintain the North's independence.

Robb was not a good political strategist.  I'd want him on my war council, I wouldn't want him on my small council.

Uh, they would all be dead by then. The Tyrells and Lannisters would just march up and sack Riverrun and the rest of the strongholds south of the neck with ease. Robb's "plan" should have been to sue for peace the moment Stannis was defeated.

[Castel]

Quote

Just to tack on, he pretty much proved that Tywin's legacy was nothing but a bunch of hot air. He beat Tywin's forces at every turn. Robb's major military blunder was to have not fully informed Edmure what exactly he was trying to achieve when he left Riverrun. If Edmure had followed the orders, Tywin would have been trapped in the Westerlands and would not have been able to ally with the Tyrells to take Stannis' forces in the rear.

Oh god this again.  Robb won a few battles none against Tywin, and one due to unavoidable tactical realities. This makes him a good commander, it does not at the same time devalue Tywin. There lies the problem with Robb fans, not so much inflating Robb as deflating Tywin when we know little about his prowess outside positions where he is strategically at a disadvantage. People keep talking like it's a chess match and Robb beat Tywin by completely outplaying him in a fair game and thus Tywin is an idiot. No, Robb used the advantages given to him by RR and Grey Wind, Tywin is not an idiot for losing.

[Dr. Pepper]

The King in the South, on 24 April 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Uh, they would all be dead by then. The Tyrells and Lannisters would just march up and sack Riverrun and the rest of the strongholds south of the neck with ease. Robb's "plan" should have been to sue for peace the moment Stannis was defeated.

That might work if winter wasn't coming on.  The Riverlands have basically been razed.  There's hardly enough there to support the Riverlanders in a long winter.  After a final harvest of whatever's left, there's nothing there to support the Tyrell/Lannister force settling in for a long, cold, hungry siege of Riverrun and the Twins and their forces would pretty much die out on their own.

After Ned was killed, Rob's major military goal is to expel the Lannisters from the Riverlands and defeat Tywin so that he can not ally himself and his forces with the Tyrells.

[Grumpy Midget]

Dr. Pepper, on 24 April 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Sigh, I'll repeat myself one more time.

Tywin was not fighting a two front war.  Stannis was off on Dragonstone.  Renly had his forces at a standstill in the Reach where there strategy was to basically lay siege of King's Landing from afar and allow the Lannisters to weaken themselves.  Tywin was only fighting Robb and he was losing!  Tywin was losing until Robb's major blunder with Edmure and Red Fork.  It was a MAJOR blunder because it enabled Tywin to escape from his losing position and ally with the Tyrell's.  I am under no delusion that Roose and the Frey's would have betrayed Robb if this one major blunder hadn't placed Robb in a position were he might actually be beat.

Robb had a sound plan to get past Moat Cailin to take out the Iron Born after the Red Wedding.  That's why he sent an envoy up to the Neck with both his written 'fake' plans and his verbal real plans so everything could be set into place when his force left the Twins.  He had Manderly building a heavy fleet to protect their borders.  Edmure, the Blackfish, and the Frey's had control of their lands and since they were allied with Robb, they would hold the Riverlands to hold a Tyrell/Lannister force from attempting to break through the Neck and Moat Cailin, a place that has NEVER been able to be defeated from the south.  Utilizing his allies in the Riverlands, the oncoming winter, the Neck, Moat Cailin and Manderly's fleet is how he would hold and maintain the North's independence.

Robb was not a good political strategist.  I'd want him on my war council, I wouldn't want him on my small council.

Looking at the map.  Given Stannis' 15 day estimate of the time it takes to march from Deepwood Motte to Winterfel in ADWD, extrapolate that distance to cover the distance from Riverrun to Winterfel.  Even if Robb had simply MARCHED up to Winterfel and back WITH NO FIGHTING involved, it would have taken him at least 3 months.   With Twyin planning to besiege Riverrun as soon as Robb left.  Ooops there goes the Riverlands portion of Robb's little kingdom.  What's left? the gutted ruins of the North, Robb's army depleted from months of hard campaigning, a new-built and inexperienced navy at White Harbor.  Against what? The Ironborn, the Redwynne fleet, the Lannister army, the Tyrell army, plus the Riverlords that went back to the Iron Throne after Robb abandoned them to their fate.  It was only a matter of TIME.

[The King in the South]

Dr. Pepper, on 24 April 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

That might work if winter wasn't coming on.  The Riverlands have basically been razed.  There's hardly enough there to support the Riverlanders in a long winter.  After a final harvest of whatever's left, there's nothing there to support the Tyrell/Lannister force settling in for a long, cold, hungry siege of Riverrun and the Twins and their forces would pretty much die out on their own.

After Ned was killed, Rob's major military goal is to expel the Lannisters from the Riverlands and defeat Tywin so that he can not ally himself and his forces with the Tyrells.

Why do they need to siege when they can just storm it? The Lannisters were going to storm Riverrun in AFFC with only something like 6k men, compared to the estimated 60k-80k they might have now, and the only reason they didn't was because Jaime found an easy way out. Sure they might suffer loses, but at this point they're so far ahead that it doesn't even matter. They could lose 10000 men taking Riverunn and they would still outnumber Robb almost 4 to 1. (And do you really think the Twins would stay loyal if Riverrun falls?

[Castel]

Dr. Pepper, on 24 April 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

That might work if winter wasn't coming on.  The Riverlands have basically been razed.  There's hardly enough there to support the Riverlanders in a long winter.  After a final harvest of whatever's left, there's nothing there to support the Tyrell/Lannister force settling in for a long, cold, hungry siege of Riverrun and the Twins and their forces would pretty much die out on their own.

After Ned was killed, Rob's major military goal is to expel the Lannisters from the Riverlands and defeat Tywin so that he can not ally himself and his forces with the Tyrells.

Except any supplies they can bring in. Riverrun isn't so lucky. And nobody knew the winter thing at the time so I don't think it factored into their decisions.

And it cuts both ways, if Tywin has to march to block the Twins, Robb has to march back down the North, which is much larger and colder, while carrying supplies, to wage any kind of war. At best he hides behind Moat Caitlin. If he tries to come down it's quite possible the Freys could hit him, on either side.

Quote

Why do they need to siege when they can just storm it? The Lannisters were going to storm Riverrun in AFFC with only something like 6k men, compared to the estimated 60k-80k they might have now, and the only reason they didn't was because Jaime found an easy way out. Sure they might suffer loses, but at this point they're so far ahead that it doesn't even matter. They could lose 10000 men taking Riverunn and they would still outnumber Robb almost 4 to 1. (And do you really think the Twins would stay loyal if Riverrun falls?

Hell this is a good way to get rid of some Highgardeners.

Edited by Castel, 24 April 2012 - 11:41 PM.

[mor2]

Grumpy Midget, on 24 April 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Actually you have to give him credit for the first of his victories.  Dividing his force up - the bulk going along the kingsroad under Bolton as a diversion, while he took a smaller mounted force to surprise Jaime at Riverrun was genius.  Unfortunately for him, repeating this formula (him going leading lightning quick raids with the cavalry, while leaving the infantry under the command of his bannermen) did not yield him any more successes on the scale of the Whispering Wood.  His fault, in my opinion, was that he did not learn to effectively utilize ALL of his resources, not just the elite, fast-moving mounted portion of his army.

I gave him credit, i said "he used his advantage". It's not like he had much choice in his situation (unlike Tywin Strategic planing from the start, that worked perfectly, with the riverlands blitzed and defeated) and such manuvere is not unheard of, but to grant him the title of genious on this single tactical victory is meh... the world is full of idiots who won a few battles...

Edited by mor2, 25 April 2012 - 12:00 AM.