176 replies to this topic

[Frey Pie]

mor2, on 24 April 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

@Grumpy Midget, in one word NO.

After people get past the stark fanboism they see there is not much to Rob military genuineness. Starting with Robb initial move when following his father arrest, at which point he knew nothing of the reason that led to it, he had no end game plan(unlike Tywin), he just rushed south to save dady.(after all that talk about justice)

Then he got really lucky that the baratheon brothers rebelled as well, and lucky again when his mother managed to convince the freys to give him passage i.e. the victory(without the freys he would have been lost, trying to force passage over the crossing). The frey who already given their liege lord the finger, who then lost at riverrun. The freys who didnt participated in the previous war, only joining the wining side in the end, they joinied some boy who has never fought a battle and is outnumbered, has no plan and outnumbered by half of the realm.... *suspension of disbelief*

Then he used his advantage and "won" 2 victories, in both his forces outnumbered the the lannister forces by few times. Then he returned his only card against the ironborn and decided that waiting for an asnwer from the iron born its fulish, it's obvious that they would agree to HIS plan(some boy who won 2 battles) and rush into the wasterlands(where the was owned few years ago). Again he had no idea how to get there, but luckily his wolf found him a super duper secret passage into the mountains, that no one knew about, allowing him to bypass the lannister forces and fall on some greenboys at night winning his third victory. Then he manged to ransake some countryside holdings and marry with the first girl he sleept with, breaking his promise to the freys who gave him his victory... yes.. briliant.

Thwe boards may be full of Stark and Robb fanboyism but this is just blatent anti-Robb/Stark. The Baratheon borthers were always going to rebel. Theres nothing lucky in it. Stannis would never bend the knee and Renly wanted Ned to take the regency. They were loyal to Robert, not the Lannisters. Renly was planning to oust the Lannisters all the time. He was lucky at the Twins but he paid his price. If he had kept his men together and marched on the green fork who knows what the outcome would have been.

His forces outnumbered the Lannisters? Where? In the Whispering Wood yes. The he fought a host3times his owns size at Riverrun. So wheres the mixup there? He had some riverlanders with him but not the10000or so difference. Oxcross he was also ounumbered. He exploited any advantage he wsa given-not brilliant commanding but very good. He was helped out by George a few times-the goat trail and such. He was also habdicapped by him-Karstark and Theon betrayal. He made a mistake sending Theon but its widely regarded as a stupid move from Balon to attack the North so could Robb have forseen it?

Robbs not a brilliant commander, but his team uip with the BF is the best wev seen form a purely military view. Who can you compare to? In this the OP is correct. Stannis seems like a decent commander, as does Tarly and as did Tywin. But neither has seen as much screentime as Robb. If Stannis beats Roose hes right back up there in my opinion. Im hoping to see Tarly back up all the claims aswel

[mor2]

corbon, on 25 April 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

Agreed, in part. It was the irrascability of Balon Greyjoy that sealed Robbs fate. The Greyjoys had the rich Westerlands, their traditional foes, at their mercy, and instead went for the north, largely because Balon's self hatred at losing his rebellion and his sons (and Theon turning up looking and acting like a mainlander just made things worse). I'm not even sure the Battle of Blackwater contributed greatly, myself.

I dont think you understand the ironborn, Balon didnt acted in vangeance for his lost rebellion. He acted because he wanted freedom, he wanted to return to the old ways, not to be granted independance by some boy but curv his kingdom.

Blaon started to prepare to invade the north, long before Robb tried to ally him and with what? to Balon Rob is a greenland BOY, who just won his first battes, promiess to GIVE balon his independence, trying to go against the might of the Lannister and the ironthrone(has no plan, later wolf will find a super secret path is not a plan) something that Ironborn failed just few years ago and for what? he will not be allowed to raids those lands.
On the other hand HE can TAKE, and strike at the un expected defensless North, with no fleet and veteran troops left, something that he might be able to keep, after all he is inadvertly helping the Ironthrone.

[mor2]

Frey Pie, on 25 April 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

Thwe boards may be full of Stark and Robb fanboyism but this is just blatent anti-Robb/Stark. The Baratheon borthers were always going to rebel. Theres nothing lucky in it....

Always going to rebel =/= Robb knew they are going to rebel, he didnt even knew why his father was arested, he just raised his troops and marched, no end game plan = no strategy (he got lucky, with borthers rebellion and then with his mother securing him the Freys)

Frey Pie, on 25 April 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

His forces outnumbered the Lannisters? Where? In the Whispering Wood yes. The he fought a host3times his owns size at Riverrun. So wheres the mixup there? He had some riverlanders with him but not the10000or so difference. Oxcross he was also ounumbered. He exploited any advantage he wsa given-not brilliant commanding but very good.

No at riverrun he fell on surprised camp from behind that were slpit three ways, taking mostly one of the camps, the other was massacred by the castle defenders when they tried to cross the river and help them out and the third retreated. Jaime lannister must have done something similar only few weeks prior, only in his case he meet the riverlords who was excpecting him, with the castle on their side.(either that or he was a genious to win witout lossing almost any troops and scatering the riverlords force ).

Frey Pie, on 25 April 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

He was helped out by George a few times-the goat trail and such.

Come on...  a supper duper secret goat track that no one knew about that his direwolf found for him. His "strategy" is being desperate and force to act and GRRM supllying him with some convenet solution. (unlike Tywin with a great strategic plan, for the riverlands)

Edited by mor2, 25 April 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[Frey Pie]

mor2, on 25 April 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

Always going to rebel =/= Robb knew they are going to rebel, he didnt even knew why his father was arested, he just raised his troops and marched, no end game plan = no strategy (he got lucky, with Brothers and then his mother with the Freys)


No at riverrun he fell on camp that was slpit three ways by surprise. jaime lannister either did something similar only few weeks prior (that or he is a genious) only in his case the riverlords was excpecting him and the castle on their side.


Come on...  a supper duper secret goat track that no one knew about that his direwolf found for him. His "strategy" is being desperate and force to act and GRRM supllying him with some convenet solution. (unlike Tywin with a great strategic plan, for the riverlands)

He knows his father was arrested for treason and being a traitor, which almost evryone who knows Ned Stark knows could not be true. He also can hear rumours and there were rumours of Stannis gathering sellswords. Also how he fled KL, as did Renly. Doesnt seem like the actions of loyal men. I have a feeling wer going to have to agree to disagree. The camp was split into 3 as you said. Jaime had 15000men. Robb had6000at most. As far as i know Robb attacked two camps at one. So thats roughly3000men against5000each time. It was a good strategy. He didnt try to overreach himself by attcking the other camp aswell which may well have resulted in defeat or high losses as he was outnumbered so much.

The means was lucky. The strategy was sound. Lure tywin west to do battle on ground of Robbs choosing and keep him from helping KL. Theres plot contivances against Robb aswell-a shadow kills Renly who was marching up to take KL, the Tyrells  siding with the Lannisters who are lucky to still be in a position to be contacted, Tyrions command in KL, Bolton and Karstark betrayal who had gone to war with Ned and always been loyal.

For the OP Jaime Lannister is showing great promise as a commander. Two victories with no bloodshed is a very good start to any budding career

[mor2]

AvengerofWinterfell, on 25 April 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

his point is exactly this...If Edmure had done what he was supposed to, there would be no Tyrell/Lannister force. Tywin only joined up with Tyrell forces AFTER Edmure beat him back at the crossing.  Had the Lannisters been allowed to cross they Would've been trapped between two armies each essentially the same size as theirs, led by commanders that had been kicking their ass throughout the war to that point.

That a nice theory, it would be even better if Bolton had marched from the east too(West,North,East). Too bad that no one comunicated it to Edmure.. or Bolton...  

Still in that case Tywin would have retreated south to the tooth, joining with troops who retreated from riverrun. As for the Tyrell/Lannister force, I think you mistake Tywin importance there, his only role was to march into the city as victor. The Tyrell host was an overkill for this battle, they could have easily won with a third of their force and then later join Tywin...  p.s. dont forget that the Ironborn would still having fun at the North and winterfell.

Frey Pie, on 25 April 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

The means was lucky. The strategy was sound. Lure tywin west to do battle on ground of Robbs choosing and keep him from helping KL.

what strategy? He wanted to strike into the Wasterlands without a way to strike into the westeralnds, again my wolf would find a super duper secret passage is not a plan, to pass he had one route, which was defended by castle and sizeable host and had 10k men near by to call in for support...  On the other hand he sent an alliance request to Balon and but didnt wait for an asnwer and jumped into the lion den. I dont see strategy, I see wishfull thinking and desperation.

As for the rest see my previous post, check your dates and as for those numbers, I'll repeat he attacked those men in the camps, with surprise factor on his side, any fool could win this. He should have prayed for the frey day and night for giving him this edge, instead he fucked them over.

Edited by mor2, 25 April 2012 - 06:01 AM.

[mor2]

Traffic thingy... somehow double post, sorry.

Edited by mor2, 25 April 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[Frey Pie]

mor2, on 25 April 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

what strategy? He wanted to strike into the Wasterlands without a way to strike into the westeralnds, again my wolf would find a super duper secret passage is not a plan, to pass he had one route, which was defended by castle and sizeable host and had 10k men near by to call in for support...  On the other hand he sent an alliance request to Balon and but didnt wait for an asnwer and jumped into the lion den. I dont see strategy, I see wishfull thinking and desperation.

As for the rest see my previous post, check your dates and as for those numbers, I'll repeat he attacked those men in the camps, with surprise factor on his side, any fool could win this. He should have prayed for the frey day and night for giving him this edge, instead he fucked them over.

The golden tooth isnt the only pass. Its the main one and is considered the best and easiestway from the riverlands but if this stroke of luck didnt occur robb could still find another pass. His strategy was to go into the West and force Tywins hand making him leave his strong position.

Whast wrong with my dates or my numbers?

[Mulled Wino]

Grumpy Midget, on 24 April 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

What war ARE you talking about?  Robb was barely able to fight Twyin to a standstill while Twyin had to fight a two front war with Renly/Stannis in his back.  How's he gonna maintain the North's independence against the Lannisters and Tyrells combined?  Or are you so delusional as to believe that Roose Bolton and the Freys would betray Robb Stark when Robb was WINNING?

That would have been easy if he had the North.

[Mulled Wino]

Lol at Grumpy Midget. Robb called the banners, then marched.  You didnt read the book?  He held strategy sessions with all his commanders and rode with different ones every day.  Pretty much everything you sayd was wrong.


Your point is that the lannisters and the tyrells would take the north, they you say rob was lucky the baratheons got involved?  Which is it?  The tyrells werent involved until renly called them?  So no lannister/tyrell force, or at least we dont know.

You think they didnt take advantage of having ghost?  You act like robb was just gonna walk right up to the lannister force.  The were actively LOOKING for a way to strategically attack.  
By the way, no one expected robb to attack that force, not tywin, tyrion, no one.

[mor2]

@Frey Pie, Meaning that at that time he didnt know Stannis was gathering sellswords and as far as I know he didnt know that Renly left the city. All he knew was that his father was arrested for treason and he decided that its not true and he rose in rebellion against the Ironthrone, at this point the lannisters hasnt yet invaded the Riverlands, so it was he agasint the whole seven kingdoms(no strategy). Later when the lannisters were in the picture, he built his plan on whishfull thinking and was lucky that his mom made it work with Freys.(and later his wolf with pass).

The Golden tooth isnt the only pass true, but then he would have to fight agsint the lannisters on their own land, in the field. so far Tywin and jaime won a battles in open field with similar forces fighting agsinst them, Rob never won a battle in the open field. He got lucky with Frey and thus was able to outnumber the unsuspecting overconfident jaime almost ten to one and then fall on his unsuspecting siege camp and then after the wolf luck on the un suspecting camp of greenboys. (who were a sleep, it was at night no?)

Edited by mor2, 25 April 2012 - 06:35 AM.

[Mulled Wino]

And dont forget Robb had a nice plan for the Neck.

He's a prodigy.  Excellent conmander for his age.

[Frey Pie]

mor2, on 25 April 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

@Frey Pie, Meaning that at that time he didnt know Stannis was gathering sellswords and as far as I know he didnt know that Renly left the city. All he knew was that his father was arrested for treason and he decided that its not true and he rose in rebellion against the Ironthrone, at this point the lannisters hasnt yet invaded the Riverlands, so it was he agasint the whole seven kingdoms(no strategy). Later when the lannisters were in the picture, he built his plan on whishfull thinking and was lucky that his mom made it work with Freys.(and later his wolf with pass).

The Golden tooth isnt the only pass true, but then he would have to fight agsint the lannisters on their own land, in the field. so far Tywin and jaime won a battles in open field with similar size forces, Rob never won a battle in the field, he got lucky with Frey and thus was able to outnumber the unsuspecting overconfident jaime almost ten to one and then fall on his unsuspecting siege camp and then after the wolf luck on the un suspecting camp of greenboys. (who were a sleep, it was at night no?)

Theres nothing which says he doesnt know either. Robb has the Manderlys with him who own WH, a big port, where news comes in. Dragonstone and Renlys runnig away from KL are big enough events for rumours to be circulating. He hasnt risen in rebellion yet. He called his banners and sat at Winterfell for a bit. Ned was sitting on the Iron Throne when Tywin started the war by sending Clegane raping and pillaging the riverlands in retaliation for Catelyns abduction of Tyrion and putting him on trial. Robb began marching south and then Ned was beheaded. Now those two things are acts of war-invading a foreign land and beheading a foreign leader. There was no rebellion from the north before this. Tywin was the rebel if anyone.

He did fight the Lannisters on their own land. He took Ashemark and other notable castles. The gold mines etc etc. There was no pitched battle because there was only one semi organised fighting force left in the West, which was destriyed by guile and cunning by Ribb, Brynden,the Greatjon Karstark and everyone else

[mor2]

Again you got the timeline off, Manderlys only came with Cat and joined him at moat cailn...

Edited by mor2, 25 April 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[Frey Pie]

I know that so he got the news along with the Manderly levys before going South to the riverlands

[Mulled Wino]

Not to mention all the birds stannis sent out which definitely reached somewhere robb would het the info from.

[Frey Pie]

Mulled Wino, on 25 April 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Not to mention all the birds stannis sent out which definitely reached somewhere robb would het the info from.

I believe this was in Clash though a bit before Robb relieved Riverrun

[TomWillcox]

Lord Littlefinger, on 25 April 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

That's true but its a huge symbolic victory. He roaming around Lannister territory with impunity. Just as Robb's allies started getting restless when the Iron Born invaded the North, Tywin's allies would begin to question inevitability of his victory.  And accordingly Tywin rushes West. Unfortuantely for Robb, the Iron Born invade the North and Winterfell falls causing him the same problem that Rob intended to cause for Tywin.

On this note, it's also worth pointing out that the Tyrells were planning on marrying Sansa to Willas, demonstrating that they were wavering in support of the Lannisters. If this had come off then its highly likely that sooner or later they would have defected to Robb seeing as Joffrey is such a monster. Once they go, there are plenty of people with reason to hate the Lannisters who no longer have much reason to fear them, Dorne, The Vale, etc. As Jaime says in AFFC, Tywin was much feared but little loved.

Suddenly the Lannisters have only the Greyjoys as potential allies, whose threat can be countered with the Redwyne fleet. The Tyrells can retreat and sit square on the rose road, preventing the food supply to Kings Landing, forcing an under-provisioned Lannister army to try to strike back to the Westerlands to save what they have left, where they can be stopped at the Fords long enough for Highgarden to take them in the rear. ALternatively the Lannister could try to smash through the Tyrells to take the rich supplies of the Reach, where they would have 20,000 against Highgarden's 50,000. In the meantime Roose Bolton could sweep down on the capital and take it, meaning the Lannister army would be surrounded. And this is assuming the Dornish don't decide to seek vengeance for Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon, and send 20,000 men through the Boneway. Highgarden could then even afford to send the same number of men up the Sea Road to take Lannisport and ruin the Westerlands.

In short, IMHO the biggest single factor in the outcome of the War of the Five Kings was Sansa being quickly married to Tyrion. Had this not happened then the above situation could well have gone through the Freys and Boltons wouldn't have dared to enact the Red Wedding. The Ironborn could have been crushed and Stannis, well, with the Lannister bastards dead or at least dethroned, I imagine he could have been given the Iron Throne if he made the deal sweet enough with the Tyrells, or everyone could just have ignored him. Had Robb reclaimed the North then I imagine Stannis and his southerners would have died in the snow.

Edited by TomWillcox, 25 April 2012 - 08:02 AM.

[AngrySoviet]

I think this is a case of a military commandant being a tactical genius and a strategic failure.

Hannibal of Carthage, for example, won almost every single one of his battles against the Romans, and ended up losing the war.

Napoleon was a tactical genius, he won almost every single battle, yet he ultimately failed because his strategy was faulty and he should have looked at the long term impacts of invading Russia.

Same thing with Robb Stark.

[mor2]

Frey Pie, on 25 April 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

I know that so he got the news along with the Manderly levys before going South to the riverlands

The point was, that when he decided to call his banners and march south, he didnt know anything, he had no plan and no way to win. He rebelled against the whole realm, putting his men in danger and for all he knew he could be as wrong as his mother who tried to excute Tyrion based on false inforamtion, that is not strategy, that impulsive act of a boy.

Edited by mor2, 25 April 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[TomWillcox]

mor2, on 25 April 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

The point was, that when he decided to call his banners and march south, he didnt know anything, he had no plan and no way to win. He rebelled against the whole realm, putting his men in danger and for all he knew he could be as wrong as his mother who tried to excute Tyrion based on false inforamtion, that is not strategy, that impulsive act of a boy.

Except that he did have a strategy, Joffrey just ruined it.

In Catelyn's chapter when she meets him on her return from the Vale, she talks with him about how their only true hope to get Ned back is to beat the Lannisters in battle. Robb does this, thereby successfully doing all within his control to implement his strategy of beating the Lannisters to get in a superior bargaining position, but Joffrey was an utter tit and beheaded Ned Stark, so that strategy became defunct. As you see from Tyrion's last chapter in Game of Thrones, Tywin would have been willing to use Eddard Stark to broker a peace with Robb and the riverlords.