50 replies to this topic

[David C. Hunter]

I know Queen Cersei will tear this thread apart, but I'm serious.

This isn't Cersei bashing, but many find that one of Cersei's few great qualities is her love for her children.

I disagree, for the most part. For me, the only truly honest affection I saw Cersei have for her children was when Myrcella was shipped off to Dorne and in my opinion, that had more to do with that fact that Cersei saw herself in Myrcella, not because she 'loved' her daughter so much. I doubt she would care half as much if Tommen were shipped off.

IMO, Cersei hides behind her love for her children especially Tommen. She fears the Tyrells influence on Tommen, not for his sake, but because of her own. She believed she could just manipulate Tommen anyway she could to be her pet, yet when Tommen starts becoming, um idk, 'kingly' she has a problem with it, even though he is the king. If she cared about him being a good king so much she would let Loras Tyrell train him. She doesn't let him do anything, because she doesn't care about his rule, she only cares about her own.

She did the same thing with Joffrey. I interpreted, 'My son Joffrey rules now' as 'I rule now'. She thought she was going to rule the 7 kingdoms and be able to put her supposed 'puppet' son out of the way. However, she couldn't control Joffrey. She may have some love for her children, but it doesnt compare to the love and obsession she has with power.
Everyone learns in AFFC that she is paranoid and has a huge chip on her shoulder for being a woman and not allowed to actually 'rule'
It could be just me.

It's the same kind of love she has for Jaime....I never....never....ever believed Cersei loved Jaime. Cersei seduces him and uses him to do her bidding. Anyone remember how cruel she was to Jaime in AFFC?  However, when she gets in trouble, all of sudden 'I love you Jaime, save me Jaime.' Is that what love is? She loves Jaime more than anything in the world.....but not so much that she is above sleeping with other men to do her bidding. Cersei's love for Jaime is no different then her 'love' for Lancel or the Kettlebacks. Ask Jaime how he loves Cersei. Jaime gave up his life to be near Cersei. He has never been with another woman, nor does he even remotely desire to. She is all he needs, even after he finds out about how she was being plowed by their cousin.

Cersei only truly loves 1 thing: Power, because she always somehow believed it was hers for some reason. I could be wrong though. Anyone else felt like this?

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

I think she really did love Joffery, Tommen suffers from having to step in Joff shadow.

You say she only showed affection for Myrcella because she saw herself in her. That is part of love for your children seeing yourself in them. Also that's pretty weak to say her emotions had nothing to do with her loving her child. This is the problem with that Maggy the Frog prophecy it's changed Cersei's motives around her children to being about fighting against her perceived future rather than it to be about her love.

Love for Jaime is a little more sketchy. They loved each other and were very close but whether that was more than sibling love with benefits still remains to be seen, they do both seemed to have drifted away from each other after being seperated for the first time in their lives.

[David C. Hunter]

RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon, on 25 April 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

I think she really did love Joffery, Tommen suffers from having to step in Joff shadow.

You say she only showed affection for Myrcella because she saw herself in her. That is part of love for your children seeing yourself in them. Also that's pretty weak to say her emotions had nothing to do with her loving her child. This is the problem with that Maggy the Frog prophecy it's changed Cersei's motives around her children to being about fighting against her perceived future rather than it to be about her love.

Love for Jaime is a little more sketchy. They loved each other and were very close but whether that was more than sibling love with benefits still remains to be seen, they do both seemed to have drifted away from each other after being seperated for the first time in their lives.

This is true, touche. I just seems that the love Cersei has for Tommen is phony. This is how I read AFFC. The same thing with Jaime

[Evamitchelle]

"My son is safe. Cersei told herself. No harm can come to him, not here, not now. Yet every time she looked at Tommen, she saw Joffrey clawing at his throat. And when the boy began to cough the queen's heart stopped beating for a moment. She knocked aside a serving girl in her haste to reach him. [...] It was more than Cersei could stand. I cannot let them see me cry, she thought, when she felt the tears welling up in her eyes. She walked past Meryn Trant and out into the back passage. Alone beneath a tallow candle she allowed herself a shuddering sob, then another."

That doesn't seem to me like the reaction of a woman who doesn't love her children.

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

I am sure that she loves her children! But all parents in some way live THROUGH their children, especially parents who feel like they have not been able to fulfill their dreams.  

About Jamie...I am not sure if she really loves him, or loves rather, his adoration of her. She loves to see herself through his eyes...but in a way, she must love him, too..or at least what he can do for her, and the part of him that 'IS' her.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

I think Cersei does love her family - it's just that she has very specific expectations about the love she is owed in return.  To Cersei, love is respect is obedience is fealty, and so, much like she seems to feel entitled to power, Cersei also seems to feel entitled to having her family fill the exact roles she has chosen for them.  Any deviation from her script is apt to draw an extreme response because, to her, if you loved her you would do what she said.

It remains to be said, however, that Cersei is probably somewhere between a narcissist and a sociopath, so her 'love' is often fucked-up and broken.  Take, for instance, her hairpin-turns between despondence and joy (at her own ascendence to power) when contemplating her father's death, or my suspicion that she claimed a crown originally intended for her son, Tommen.

[Currawong]

Evamitchelle, on 25 April 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

"My son is safe. Cersei told herself. No harm can come to him, not here, not now. Yet every time she looked at Tommen, she saw Joffrey clawing at his throat. And when the boy began to cough the queen's heart stopped beating for a moment. She knocked aside a serving girl in her haste to reach him. [...] It was more than Cersei could stand. I cannot let them see me cry, she thought, when she felt the tears welling up in her eyes. She walked past Meryn Trant and out into the back passage. Alone beneath a tallow candle she allowed herself a shuddering sob, then another."

That doesn't seem to me like the reaction of a woman who doesn't love her children.

She has a very funny way of showing her love,  if that's what it is.  Look at the terrible way in which she treats poor Tommen at Tywin's funeral, when the kid is upset at the sight of the rotting corpse.  Jaime takes the boy outside and is dealing with him gently, then Cersei arrives and is absolutely cruel to Tommen because he'd become upset in public.  There was no reason for that at all, and it was a really vicious side of Cersei, certainly not the image of a loving mother. I have the impression that Cersei's love is mostly conditional, one conditon being that you don't do something that she sees as 'shaming' her in public.

I am not sure that Cersei ever understands the selflessness aspect of true love.   There always seems to be so much "ME" in her love for her children, for Jaime, for her father, that you wonder whether she could ever actually love another person for himself/ herself in their own right.

Edited by Currawong, 25 April 2012 - 06:33 AM.

[Ser Sweets]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 25 April 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

I think Cersei does love her family - it's just that she has very specific expectations about the love she is owed in return.  To Cersei, love is respect is obedience is fealty, and so, much like she seems to feel entitled to power, Cersei also seems to feel entitled to having her family fill the exact roles she has chosen for them.  Any deviation from her script is apt to draw an extreme response because, to her, if you loved her you would do what she said.

Great description of how I more-or-less feel about Cersei's love. It's probably why I cannot find myself sympathetic to the character, because I had a friend like that. Very obnoxious personality.

However, while I do not like Cersei I do think she loves her children. Evamitchelle referenced some great justification of Cersei's love for her children, but I do not think that Cersei is entirely capable of selfless love.

I doubt, for instance, that Cersei would be able to continue loving her children if she felt they had truly and utterly disappointed her. She does have expectations for her children, for herself, and for her house, based primarily on pride - she is a lot like Tywin in that way, but not so good at keeping up appearances or appearing stable.

You could say the same for how she felt about Jaime. He represented a certain need in her life, filled a specific role, and both physical and emotional changes weren't something she could handle despite his consistent adoration of her. He was no longer what she had decided he was.

[Zeromus]

Cersei only truly loves herself and power. She only loves her children as a means to power.

Her love for Jaime was a sort of lustful self-regard. She saw Jaime as the male reflection of herself.

[sennahoj]

I think a lot about the negative attitude towards Cersei stems from her cruelty and ruthlessness with which she handles her (perceived) enemies. It all starts with the window-pushing of Bran. I think she could have stopped it, had she wanted to, given her great influence over Jaime. But she didn't, and so the criticism runs along the lines of "how can a mother allow any child to be harmed, she must be a terrible mother".
I think Cersei is paranoid about the wellbeing of her children, because she has to constantly cover-up their parentage. But I would still say that she loves her children, and Jaime too. Cersei made a choice to have these particular children with Jaime instead of Robert. She could still have had Jaime as a lover, while still "doing her duties" and producing an heir with Robert. If the incestuous liaison had produced unwanted children, she could still have taken moontea or tansy or whatever abortive means are available in Westeros. But she didn't. Instead Cersei made a decision, aware of all the possible dangers, to have Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, because she wanted these children, and she wanted to have them with Jaime. Of course the narcissistic aspect of seeing herself not only in Jaime, but also the children, and even more so due to the incest, plays a role in that. But I don't think that Cersei's comparing Tommen unfavourably to Joffrey or being strict, even mean to him at certain situations, makes her a bad or unloving mother. Parents compare their kids all the time and sometimes wish for them to show more or less of a certain characteristic, that doesn't make parents bad. If anything, Cersei is blinded by the love for her children, and to blame for some of their faults. For example spoiling Joffrey and turning a blind eye to his cruel streak, which I doubt completely escaped Cersei. You might argue whether she did a good job bringing up her children, but does she truly love them? I think she does.

[nara]

Currawong, on 25 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

She has a very funny way of showing her love,  if that's what it is.  Look at the terrible way in which she treats poor Tommen at Tywin's funeral, when the kid is upset at the sight of the rotting corpse.  Jaime takes the boy outside and is dealing with him gently, then Cersei arrives and is absolutely cruel to Tommen because he'd become upset in public.  There was no reason for that at all, and it was a really vicious side of Cersei, certainly not the image of a loving mother. I have the impression that Cersei's love is mostly conditional, one conditon being that you don't do something that she sees as 'shaming' her in public.

Cersei is, no doubt, excessively proud, and should have handled Tommen crying with more tact like Jaime did.  However, this scene reminded me of 7-year old Bran being taken to watch an execution.  He was expected to watch it without flinching or turning away.  It think it's a similar situation for Tommen and the funeral.  More so, because Tommen is the king and unfortunately does not have the luxury of behaving like a little boy.  In the same situation, I doubt Bran would have run away like Tommen did.  By running away, he undermined his position and put himself and his family in danger.  People may continue to support him if they think he'll grow quickly into kingly behavior, but not if they think he'll be weak.  Unfair for a little boy, but it's what's expected of royals, especially in Westeros.  Cersei is horrible, but I think she was right want Tommen to behave in a more mature fashion.  Unfortunately, she reacts in a completely inappropriate way that further undermines her son.

[Evamitchelle]

Currawong, on 25 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

She has a very funny way of showing her love,  if that's what it is.  Look at the terrible way in which she treats poor Tommen at Tywin's funeral, when the kid is upset at the sight of the rotting corpse.  Jaime takes the boy outside and is dealing with him gently, then Cersei arrives and is absolutely cruel to Tommen because he'd become upset in public.  There was no reason for that at all, and it was a really vicious side of Cersei, certainly not the image of a loving mother. I have the impression that Cersei's love is mostly conditional, one conditon being that you don't do something that she sees as 'shaming' her in public.

I am not sure that Cersei ever understands the selflessness aspect of true love.   There always seems to be so much "ME" in her love for her children, for Jaime, for her father, that you wonder whether she could ever actually love another person for himself/ herself in their own right.

Since Cersei only becomes a POV character in AFFC, it is the only point of reference as regards to Tommen and Cersei's relationship that we have, and therefore we can't know if what happens there is really indicative of their normal relationship. I do agree that her treatment of Tommen is all kinds of messed up in AFFC but I can also understand why she acts that way.

She loses both her son and father in quick succession, when they should have been at their safest. Joffrey's marriage to Margaery Tyrell was basically supposed to end the war for the Lannisters once and for all, but instead he was murdered right in front of her. And then the man she is convinced did it escapes from her own dungeons and kills her father in his privy. Her behaviour in AFFC is just a product of those events. She desperately wants to protect Tommen, the only one of her children she can still help, but she does so in a terribly misguided way : by trying to prematurely harden him to his task. She decided to prioritize his safety rather than his well-being (I don't have the book at hand to check but isn't Tommen's safety the first thing she asks about right after she finishes her walk of shame ?).

I think you can still love someone and be terrible to them, especially within family relationships.

[David C. Hunter]

Evamitchelle, on 25 April 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Since Cersei only becomes a POV character in AFFC, it is the only point of reference as regards to Tommen and Cersei's relationship that we have, and therefore we can't know if what happens there is really indicative of their normal relationship. I do agree that her treatment of Tommen is all kinds of messed up in AFFC but I can also understand why she acts that way.

She loses both her son and father in quick succession, when they should have been at their safest. Joffrey's marriage to Margaery Tyrell was basically supposed to end the war for the Lannisters once and for all, but instead he was murdered right in front of her. And then the man she is convinced did it escapes from her own dungeons and kills her father in his privy. Her behaviour in AFFC is just a product of those events. She desperately wants to protect Tommen, the only one of her children she can still help, but she does so in a terribly misguided way : by trying to prematurely harden him to his task. She decided to prioritize his safety rather than his well-being (I don't have the book at hand to check but isn't Tommen's safety the first thing she asks about right after she finishes her walk of shame ?).

I think you can still love someone and be terrible to them, especially within family relationships.

I agree with you, but Cersei could've cared less about her father dying - Queen of Thorns - "Lets leave the queen to her 'grief.'.

The walk of shame is tricky because whenever Cersei is vulnerable is when she wants comfort and sees the faces she loves, but when she is in command with no fear she seems to toss everyone aside. Personally, I believe she was relieved Tywin died because now she was totally in control for the first time ever. She claims to love Jaime whenever she needs Jaime to do something for her, but as her power grows in AFFC she belittles him more and more and eventually pushes him completely away. Until she is in trouble again and now she is all lovey dovey with him again. Cersei d0esnt know what love is IMO. She wants love on her own terms. You are right though, I cannot judge her in the first three books because she wasn't a POV. But it seems like the only difference between Tommen and Joffrey is that she couldn't control Joffrey but she can control Tommen.

[Lord Damian]

Cersei loves herself, her children too but not as much as her. She loved joff because he looked like her and Jaime. she was blatently ignorant of the fact he was a psychopath. Cersei is about cersei in the end, nothing else really matters. Her kids though, give her power, therefore she needs them more than she really loves them.

[David C. Hunter]

Lord Damian, on 25 April 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

Cersei loves herself, her children too but not as much as her. She loved joff because he looked like her and Jaime. she was blatently ignorant of the fact he was a psychopath. Cersei is about cersei in the end, nothing else really matters. Her kids though, give her power, therefore she needs them more than she really loves them.

You summed up what I believe about her  better than  I did.

[BlueHighwind]

Cersei cares about her children, I guess you could say she does love them, but in a really messed-up and horribly destructive way.  If she lived in the 21st century, she'd have Munchausen's by proxy.  Her influence over Tommen is clearly terrible, and she's just an utterly terrible person.  Lock her away.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

She loved Joffrey for sure but I'm not so sure about Tommen. Also does anyone else seeing the Tyrells or maybe someone at the behest of Littlefinger slipping Cersei's death warrant into a stack of documents needing Tommen's seal?

[Patchface12]

I think she does love her children, even if it is a possessive, greedy love. Some sociopaths/psychopaths like animals as oppose to people, yet even for them, their dog is more like a favorite stuffed animal than a living companion. I see Cersei's love of her children more like that than a typical parent/ offspring love.

[Independent George]

David C. Simmons, on 25 April 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

She believed she could just manipulate Tommen anyway she could to be her pet, yet when Tommen starts becoming, um idk, 'kingly' she has a problem with it, even though he is the king. If she cared about him being a good king so much she would let Loras Tyrell train him. She doesn't let him do anything, because she doesn't care about his rule, she only cares about her own.

Love doesn't mean good judgement. It wasn't a matter of trying to manipulate Tommen, she just thought he was too weak to rule properly, and was very worried that he would be manipulated by the Tyrells. She remarked several times on how Joffrey was too strong to be taken in by them, and was disappointed in the way he could be cowed by her so easily.

She didn't want Loras training him because (1) he's a Tyrell, and therefore not to be trusted, and (2) she thought he would turn Tommen gay.

[eyeheartsansa]

I'd say she basically loves her children, but big whoop.  Who doesn't love their children?  It's hardly a 'redeeming quality,' like 'good for her, loving her children.

She is pretty nasty to Tommen as well.