194 replies to this topic

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

the Scorpion Knight, on 26 April 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

on he paper the riverlord bent the knee to jaime

Oh. barefoot guy with noose around his neck? Well then I guess Petyr is lucky not to be him then.

Seriously though. He has the riverlands.  You don't think he'll collect his taxes and reap the benefits of his liege lordship?  He just won't set foot in Harrenhal. Nor bother defending it.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

jarl the climber, on 26 April 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

We can see that being a Paramount Lord means being able to deal with disloyal bannermen like the Florents, Freys, Boltons, etc. So you honestly don't think anyone will care that he kidnaped or rescued Sansa from Kings Landing?

Some people might, if they knew.

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Renly was a traitor so of course no one cares about him  

Eddard was a traitor, he said as much on the steps of Balor's sept. In the sight of gods and men.

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but being Lord Paramount of the Trident is based on a peice of paper given to him by the Lannisters and King Joffery.

Yeah. He's the King.  That's how it works.  You got that part figured out.

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He has issues with Sansa because she is suspected in Joffs death and is married to Tyrion. The Freys do have some eyes and ears in the Vale, a Frey is Maester of Longbow Hall and there are some Freys married to the Waynewoods and Royces. Knowledge of Sansa being there under his protection would lead to his title being revoked and charges of treason. IMO this would make him more popular in the Vale if it beame known

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Jayaris, on 26 April 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

"I ought to make you say it, but that would be cruel.. so have no fear, my good lord. For the sake of the love I bear for Catelyn, I will go to Janos Slynt this very hour and make certain that the city watch is yours..." Can't see how this is anything other than a betrayal, Petyr and Ned may well not of been friends - But, Littlefinger did not declare his false intent lightly.

  Yeah.  Ned told Robert he would be Joffrey's regent.  If you're looking for another job not telling your boss isn't really betrayal.  Even less so if you tell her you're dissatisfied with the working conditions or future changes she plans to make to the working conditions.

If Petyr had said "Ned, I'm not going to support you."  How would it change anything?

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 26 April 2012 - 03:21 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

the Scorpion Knight, on 26 April 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

I think this will make him much more unpopular especially since it might be revealed that he has a hand in the death of joffrey first ( the imprisoned kettleblacks remember)

Dude. The Kettleblacks don't know anything. He explicitly says they couldn't be trusted in such matters.

“So one of the Kettleblacks put the poison in Joff ‘s cup?” Ser Osmund had been near the king all night, she remembered.

“Did I say that?” Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger and offered half to Sansa. “The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme... and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him.” He tilted his chin back and squeezed the blood orange, so the juice ran down into his mouth. “I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers,” he complained, wiping his hands. “Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean.”

[jarl the climber]

Lord Littlefinger, on 26 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Oh. barefoot guy with noose around his neck? Well then I guess Petyr is lucky not to be him then.

Seriously though. He has the riverlands.  You don't think he'll collect his taxes and reap the benefits of his liege lordship?  He just won't set foot in Harrenhal. Nor bother defending it.

I think some of the Lords but ecspecialy the Freys will not pay him unless he can force them to. Personaly I don't think he cares all his investments are in the Vale.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Lord Littlefinger, on 26 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Oh. barefoot guy with noose around his neck? Well then I guess Petyr is lucky not to be him then.

Seriously though. He has the riverlands.  You don't think he'll collect his taxes and reap the benefits of his liege lordship?  He just won't set foot in Harrenhal. Nor bother defending it.

I think this guy will join the BWB to save his aunt an cousins the the riverlord respect him

this also means he has to keep the peace and MAINTAIN his holdings besides  how do you think LF does intend to collect the incomes without army and presence

the kettle blacks know of the dwarfs and are on LF payroll that's more than enough to raise susputions about the guilt of tyrion (and all three are under torture)

[Jayaris]

Lord Littlefinger, on 26 April 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Yeah.  Ned told Robert he would be Joffrey's regent.  If you're looking for another job not telling your boss isn't really betrayal.  Even less so if you tell her you're dissatisfied with the working conditions or future changes she plans to make to the working conditions.

If Petyr had said "Ned, I'm not going to support you."  How would it change anything?

Cersei offers to let Ned return to the north if he bends the knee, knowing that the City Guard won't support him he may well have accepted the offer. (Unless he's an absolute moron, which you believe him to be)

Edited by Jayaris, 26 April 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[TheWanderer]

Lord Littlefinger, on 26 April 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Yeah.  Ned told Robert he would be Joffrey's regent.  If you're looking for another job not telling your boss isn't really betrayal.  Even less so if you tell her you're dissatisfied with the working conditions or future changes she plans to make to the working conditions.

True. However telling your boss "I will have the project completed by friday" and then actually delivering the project to a rival company, is betrayal (and illegal). It doesn't matter how much you protest your job (and indeed Littlefinger doesn't do that much).

Yes, Littlefinger says several times that Ned shouldn't trust him but he never shows himself to be anything less than trustworthy. And then he tells him that he will deliver the City Watch. So in other words, he offers to help Ned and Ned is supposed to dismiss this assistance (which he needs) because Littlefinger jokes about not being trustworthy?

Betrayal might require trust but their clearly is trust there. Ned trusts Littlefinger to deliver the goldcloaks and Littlefinger breaks that trust and betrays Ned.

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If Petyr had said "Ned, I'm not going to support you."  How would it change anything?

Because Ned wouldn't have walked into a death-trap thinking that said trap was set for someone else? If Ned doesn't think he has the goldcloaks, he doesn't walk into the throne room to force Cersei to stand down, he isn't captured and isn't killed. So if Littlefinger doesn't betray Ned then Sansa still has her father, her sister and her freedom.


Littlefinger's authority over the Riverlands is questionable at best. Yes, he is the official Lord of the region. However, 'his' Lords are shown to be almost universally dismissive of him and they owe him no loyalty (unlike Edmure, the Blackfish, Robb's heir, etc). Most of the Lords also serve the Lannisters (who appointed Littlefinger) begrudgingly at best, and they might not last much longer anyway. And finally, Littlefinger's military is entirely in the hands of others, who's loyalty he cannot count on. What this all means is that the Riverlands have no reason or desire to serve Littlefinger willingly and he lacks the ability to enforce their service. His power is promises, and we all know that words are wind.

Littlefinger has no hope of holding or winning the North. The North remembers and they do not forgive. Ned's blood is on Littlefinger's hands and this fact is not a secret. Now he holds Ned's daughter hostage and demands fealty? The Freys and Boltons should show the folly of that.

Littlefinger has a pretty decent hold on the Vale, at the moment. However this is based entirely on his being Robert Arryn's protector and deals he is working out amongst the Lords Declarent. In other words, everything Littlefinger holds balances on the life of a sickly boy (that he seems to be actively trying to kill) and worthless words.

Littlefinger has built himself a nice little house of cards but winter is coming, the winds will change and everything he has will come crumbling down around his feet.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Jayaris, on 26 April 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Cersei offers to let Ned return to the north if he bends the knee, knowing that the City Guard won't support him he may well have accepted the offer. (Unless he's an absolute moron, which you believe him to be)

Yeah either way. He's in Cersei's power and reliant on her forbearance.  I don't see how that makes any difference.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

TheWanderer, on 26 April 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

True. However telling your boss "I will have the project completed by friday" and then actually delivering the project to a rival company, is betrayal (and illegal).

Yeah that is. But you can walk out the door with your entire team and all of your clients.

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It doesn't matter how much you protest your job (and indeed Littlefinger doesn't do that much). Yes, Littlefinger says several times that Ned shouldn't trust him but he never shows himself to be anything less than trustworthy. And then he tells him that he will deliver the City Watch. So in other words, he offers to help Ned and Ned is supposed to dismiss this assistance (which he needs) because Littlefinger jokes about not being trustworthy?

No. He should ask himself why Petyr would help him put Stannis on the throne, after Petyr just explained to him why it would profoundly against his own interest.

And, Petyr did try to help Ned. Ned just refused to listen to reason.  

And the day on the street of silk, THE LAST TIME Petyr went to fetch the gold cloaks, all of Ned's men ended up getting killed and Ned ended with a broken leg. And under Lannister power.  

How did it turn out the second time?

The reality is Littlefinger is playing slow-pitch softball with Ned.  And Ned still gets himself killed.

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Betrayal might require trust but their clearly is trust there. Ned trusts Littlefinger to deliver the goldcloaks and Littlefinger breaks that trust and betrays Ned. Because Ned wouldn't have walked into a death-trap thinking that said trap was set for someone else?  

He wouldn't? He seems quite intent on walking into a death trap.  

Littlefinger, Renly, Varys, Lysa Arryn, Arya.... how many warnings does he need?  

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   If Ned doesn't think he has the goldcloaks, he doesn't walk into the throne room to force Cersei to stand down, he isn't captured and isn't killed.  

He isn't? Vayon Poole wasn't in the room. If Petyr tells Ned he's not going to support him.  Petyr is still going to have the Gold Cloaks lock down the city. Cersei is still going to ask Ned to bend the knee.  Cersei will then probably still have Ned's entire household put to the sword.  If Ned won't bend the knee, he'll be thrown in a black cell.  And since he wasn't ready to bend the knee when Varys talked to him in the black cells, I presume Ned would have been ready for another trip.

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So if Littlefinger doesn't betray Ned then Sansa still has her father, her sister and her freedom.


Littlefinger's authority over the Riverlands is questionable at best. Yes, he is the official Lord of the region. However, 'his' Lords are shown to be almost universally dismissive of him and they owe him no loyalty (unlike Edmure, the Blackfish, Robb's heir, etc). Most of the Lords also serve the Lannisters (who appointed Littlefinger) begrudgingly at best, and they might not last much longer anyway. And finally, Littlefinger's military is entirely in the hands of others,  

And this makes him different than any other lord in the 7 kingdoms how?

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who's loyalty he cannot count on.

And this makes him different than any other lord in the 7 kingdoms how?

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What this all means is that the Riverlands have no reason or desire to serve Littlefinger willingly and he lacks the ability to enforce their service

Sure he does the same way he did in the Vale with the Lords Declarant

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. His power is promises, and we all know that words are wind. Littlefinger has no hope of holding or winning the North.

Why the fuck would Littlefinger want the North?

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The North remembers and they do not forgive. Ned's blood is on Littlefinger's hands  

They don't know that.

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and this fact is not a secret.

Was there someone else in that room with Ned and Littlefinger?

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Now he holds Ned's daughter hostage and demands fealty?  

They don't know he has Ned's daughter

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The Freys and Boltons should show the folly of that. Littlefinger has a pretty decent hold on the Vale, at the moment. However this is based entirely on his being Robert Arryn's protector and deals he is working out amongst the Lords Declarent. In other words, everything Littlefinger holds balances on the life of a sickly boy (that he seems to be actively trying to kill)

Obviously if he's trying to kill Robert Arryn then he's accounted for holding power without him.  

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and worthless words.

His words aren't worthless. He promised the Cersei Goldcloaks, and she got them.  He promised Tyrion, Tyrells and he got them.  He promised Tywin the fealty of the Vale and Tywin got it.  He's no different than any other Lord in Westeros including Ned Stark, Robert, Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn.  He will keep his word as long as its in his interest to do so.  And normally it is in his interest to do so.  

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Littlefinger has built himself a nice little house of cards but winter is coming, the winds will change and everything he has will come crumbling down around his feet.

I might be more inclined to believe that if anything in the last paragraph your wrote coincided with reality in the books.  As of yet its just wishful thinking. And if those things were the case, I wouldn't like Littlefinger to begin with.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

the Scorpion Knight, on 26 April 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I think this guy will join the BWB to save his aunt an cousins the the riverlord respect him this also means he has to keep the peace and MAINTAIN his holdings besides how do you think LF does intend to collect the incomes without army and presence the kettle blacks know of the dwarfs and are on LF payroll that's more than enough to raise susputions about the guilt of tyrion (and all three are under torture)

Yeah the dwarfs. That's meaningless. They're on Petyr's payroll because they were brought to kingslanding to spy on Tyrion.  Then Tyrion hired them to spy Cersei and Cersei used them the spy on Margery.  How the fuck is that supposed to reflect poorly on Littlefinger?

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 26 April 2012 - 07:36 PM.

[Darth Arya]

She would go up alot in my book if she killed SweetRobin,preferably painfully too.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

jarl the climber, on 26 April 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

I think some of the Lords but ecspecialy the Freys will not pay him unless he can force them to. Personaly I don't think he cares all his investments are in the Vale.

Oh that's true.  But he can just get the lords to collects taxes from one another in exchange for a percentage of what's collected.  The all have their petty disputes between one another.  Like the Blackwoods and Brackens. I'm sure he'll be able to make more off the rivelands than Hoster or Edmrue Tully ever did.

[Jayaris]

Lord Littlefinger, on 26 April 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

Yeah either way. He's in Cersei's power and reliant on her forbearance.  I don't see how that makes any difference.

Well when Littlefinger lies to him Ned's options are :

Bend the knee to a false king

or

Have the gold cloaks kill the Lannister men and take the children into custody (Ned Wins)

And if Littlefinger tells the truth :

Bend the knee to a false king

or

Go to the black cells/death/exile etc.

Obviously in the first instance he's going to just have the Gold Cloaks go to work, but in the second instance he is aware the he is powerless and his only way out of the situation is to bend the knee.

How can removing one of Ned's options in the throne room not affect his decision, he's obviously not going to order the Gold Cloaks around if he knows they aren't with him - He might of even tried to flee the city.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Jayaris, on 26 April 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Well when Littlefinger lies to him Ned's options are : Bend the knee to a false king or Have the gold cloaks kill the Lannister men and take the children into custody (Ned Wins) And if Littlefinger tells the truth : Bend the knee to a false king or Go to the black cells/death/exile etc. Obviously in the first instance he's going to just have the Gold Cloaks go to work, but in the second instance he is aware the he is powerless and his only way out of the situation is to bend the knee. How can removing one of Ned's options in the throne room not affect his decision, he's obviously not going to order the Gold Cloaks around if he knows they aren't with him - He might of even tried to flee the city.

Well first of all once he is within Cersei's power I consider Ned dead.  His life now belongs to others, whether he lives or not is not under his control.  

“If there are gods,” Varys said, “I expect they will. The queen would not have waited long in any case. Robert was becoming unruly, and she needed to be rid of him to free her hands to deal with his brothers. They are quite a pair, Stannis and Renly. The iron gauntlet and the silk glove.” He wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. “You have been foolish, my lord. You ought to have heeded Littlefinger when he urged you to support Joffrey’s succession.”

“How... how could you know of that?”

Varys smiled. “I know, that’s all that need concern you. I also know that on the morrow the queen will pay you a visit.”

Slowly Ned raised his eyes. “Why?”

“Cersei is frightened of you, my lord... but she has other enemies she fears even more. Her beloved Jaime is fighting the river lords even now. Lysa Arryn sits in the Eyrie, ringed in stone and steel, and there is no love lost between her and the queen. In Dorne, the Martells still brood on the murder of Princess Elia and her babes. And now your son marches down the Neck with a northern host at his back.”

“Robb is only a boy,” Ned said, aghast.

“A boy with an army,” Varys said. “Yet only a boy, as you say. The king’s brothers are the ones giving Cersei sleepless nights... Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man. No one knows what Stannis has been doing on Dragonstone, but I will wager you that he’s gathered more swords than seashells. So here is Cersei’s nightmare: while her father and brother spend their power battling Starks and Tullys, Lord Stannis will land, proclaim himself king, and lop off her son’s curly blond head... and her own in the bargain, though I truly believe she cares more about the boy.”

“Stannis Baratheon is Robert’s true heir,” Ned said. “The throne is his by rights. I would welcome his ascent.”

Varys tsked. “Cersei will not want to hear that, I promise you. Stannis may win the throne, but only your rotting head will remain to cheer unless you guard that tongue of yours. Sansa begged so sweetly, it would be a shame if you threw it all away. You are being given your life back, if you’ll take it. Cersei is no fool. She knows a tame wolf is of more use than a dead one.”

“You want me to serve the woman who murdered my king, butchered my men, and crippled my son?” Ned’s voice was thick with disbelief.

“I want you to serve the realm,” Varys said. “Tell the queen that you will confess your vile treason, command your son to lay down his sword, and proclaim Joffrey as the true heir. Offer to denounce Stannis and Renly as faithless usurpers. Our green-eyed lioness knows you are a man of honor. If you will give her the peace she needs and the time to deal with Stannis, and pledge to carry her secret to your grave, I believe she will allow you to take the black and live out the rest of your days on the Wall, with your brother and that baseborn son of yours.”

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him... pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. “Is this your own scheme,” he gasped out at Varys, “or are you in league with Littlefinger?”

That seemed to amuse the eunuch. “I would sooner wed the Black Goat of Qohor. Littlefinger is the second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms. Oh, I feed him choice whispers, sufficient so that he thinks I am his... just as I allow Cersei to believe I am hers.”

“And just as you let me believe that you were mine. Tell me, Lord Varys, who do you truly serve?”

Varys smiled thinly. “Why, the realm, my good lord, how ever could you doubt that? I swear it by my lost manhood. I serve the realm, and the realm needs peace.” He finished the last swallow of wine, and tossed the empty skin aside. “So what is your answer, Lord Eddard? Give me your word that you’ll tell the queen what she wants to hear when she comes calling.”

“If I did, my word would be as hollow as an empty suit of armor. My life is not so precious to me as that.”

So here Ned is under Lannister Power he's been in the black cells for how long, a month? Slowly starving to death.  And he hasn't decided to bend the knee yet.


Ned might have tried the flee the city but why do you think Petyr would let him do that? Petyr would either come to the tower with gold cloaks when Ned summoned him or immediately move to lock down the city and the Red Keep when he leaves Ned.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 26 April 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[jarl the climber]

Lord Littlefinger, on 26 April 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Oh that's true.  But he can just get the lords to collects taxes from one another in exchange for a percentage of what's collected.  The all have their petty disputes between one another.  Like the Blackwoods and Brackens. I'm sure he'll be able to make more off the rivelands than Hoster or Edmrue Tully ever did.

Actually the Freys are holding most of the cards because of all the hostages they have taken. Its assumed by many that they've been sent to Kings Landing to have ransoms arranged but this is conjecture. If Petyr does mean to assert his rights in the Riverlands the Freys will  try to oppose him.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

jarl the climber, on 26 April 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Actually the Freys are holding most of the cards because of all the hostages they have taken. Its assumed by many that they've been sent to Kings Landing to have ransoms arranged but this is conjecture. If Petyr does mean to assert his rights in the Riverlands the Freys will try to oppose him.

Well its not really conjecture. Jamie demanded they be turned over.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

The fact that Littlefinger instructed Lysa to purposely keep the Vale out of the War of the Five Kings has a lot to do with his future plots. The Vale sits virtually unscathed while the majority of Westeros lays bleeding. All roads lead to him mounting some sort of surprise attack but when and where is still a mystery.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Lord Littlefinger, on 26 April 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Yeah the dwarfs. That's meaningless. They're on Petyr's payroll because they were brought to kingslanding to spy on Tyrion.  Then Tyrion hired them to spy Cersei and Cersei used them the spy on Margery.  How the fuck is that supposed to reflect poorly on Littlefinger?

do you think the questioners are stupid?
upon hearing the dwarfs are hired by the kettleblacks or even that they are spies on LF payroll might be enough to start an investigationon LF

Prince of Dragonstone, on 26 April 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

The fact that Littlefinger instructed Lysa to purposely keep the Vale out of the War of the Five Kings has a lot to do with his future plots. The Vale sits virtually unscathed while the majority of Westeros lays bleeding. All roads lead to him mounting some sort of surprise attack but when and where is still a mystery.

I think HE will be the subject of an surprise attack

[David Selig]

Most likely it was the father of the Kettleblacks who hired the dwarves, all the rest were in KL and had no time to go to Pentos and back, plus clearly LF trusts him much more than his sons. But even if they know and confess it, so what? Hiring dwarves for entertainment is no crime.

It's probable the sons don't even know who their father is working for and why he had them go to KL.