194 replies to this topic

[Darth Rivers]

@Lots of people

Why does LF need Sansa to claim the Riverlands? He already IS the fucking lord of the Riverlands.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Darth Rivers, on 27 April 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

@Lots of people

Why does LF need Sansa to claim the Riverlands? He already IS the fucking lord of the Riverlands.

on a paper given to him by the lannisters oh have it been mentioned that he does nothing there

[Lyanna Stark]

Raksha the Demon, on 26 April 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

I can't for the life of me figure out why Littlefinger isn't doing everything he can to keep Robert Arryn alive; rather than encouraging the use of the sweetsleep.  He needs that kid alive and relatively well (i.e. not comatose) until Sansa is married to Harry and can entreat her new hubby to keep Littlefinger around as a counselor.  If Robert dies before Sansa is married to Harry, the Vale-lords will happily force Littlefinger out of the Eyrie; there would be no legal pretext for him to be regent.  Of course, his influence will have increased by then, but I'm not sure that Lady Waynwood wouldn't have more influence on Harry; and there's no reason for Harry to go along with keeping Littlefinger in power.  

Because inside the tapestries, Sansa's and Tyrion's anullment can be found!!!

On a more serious note, I agree with you, I think LF is overplaying his hand. We've seen it with Sansa that he acts rashly on certain matters. He could also not have foreseen F!Aegon landing in Westerors, as I think this came completely out of left field for a lot of people. LF also mentions Cersei is imploding faster than he thought she would, and that he thought he had more time. It could be that when things move too fast for LF, he needs to really press on to catch up.

One of those things I think is the marriage annullment. Since it's been said a person needs to apply for the annullmemnt in person, can Sansa maybe apply for it in the presence of enough Septons/religious people and not have to go to Kings Landing, or does she have to go there? Sending a letter and singing it as herself could easily be falsified, so she needs something to verify her claim that she is indeed Sansa Stark. Especially since the new High Septon seems to be extremely strict. LF needs to somehow get this done to secure the Harry the Heir arrangement, although he did say himself a betrothal would work for Alayne. By end ADWD Sansa would be around 14, so LF has at the longest 2 more years before Sansa comes of age. Or one year, if we look at "Alayne's" given age.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 27 April 2012 - 04:52 AM.

[Woman of War]

But why should Sansa want to annul the marriage to Tyrion!? He is the best husband imaginable: Far, far away, nowhere to be found, he surely won't touch her - and as long as she is married to Tyrion no one, neither LF or any other powerjunkie can force her into another arranged marriage. For her own wellbeing Sansa should insist on STAYING married!
I think she may be rather done with men and is not looking for starting an affair any time soon - if LF does not successfully manage to make her want him, he can be convincing  - , so Tyrion at the moment is unknowingly her best protector. And if she has to declare that the marriage has been consummated to make it  impossible to be ended, this would be a nice blow to Baelish's plans. A clever move of Sansa, I hope she has no wish anymore to be pushed around.

Apart from that: I do not remember if Sansa knows that she is still married, that Tyrion escaped and has disappeared. Maybe LF will try to get Sansa's marriage annulled behind her back. And then she will turn  LF 's plans to dust by insisting on the Tyrion marriage.

[voodooqueen126]

Woman of War, on 27 April 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

But why should Sansa want to annul the marriage to Tyrion!? He is the best husband imaginable: Far, far away, nowhere to be found, he surely won't touch her - and as long as she is married to Tyrion no one, neither LF or any other powerjunkie can force her into another arranged marriage. For her own wellbeing Sansa should insist on STAYING married!
I think she may be rather done with men and is not looking for starting an affair any time soon - if LF does not successfully manage to make her want him, he can be convincing  - , so Tyrion at the moment is unknowingly her best protector. And if she has to declare that the marriage has been consummated to make it  impossible to be ended, this would be a nice blow to Baelish's plans. A clever move of Sansa, I hope she has no wish anymore to be pushed around.

Apart from that: I do not remember if Sansa knows that she is still married, that Tyrion escaped and has disappeared. Maybe LF will try to get Sansa's marriage annulled behind her back. And then she will turn  LF 's plans to dust by insisting on the Tyrion marriage.

Yes, and should Sansa defy Petyr by choosing to stay married to a husband who cannot protect her, then Petyr will rape her himself, or sell her to the Boltons, or to Cersei, or to Varys etc... The only way Sansa can stop being a pawn who could be mistreated in such a manner is for her to obtain power, and the easiest way to do that will be to marry Harry Harding.
Thus insisting on the marriage to Tyrion, would be an insanely stupid move, since it would remove the easiest and most likely method Sansa has of gaining power, thus causing her to be subject to abuse.

[Petyr Middlefinger Baelish]

David Selig, on 27 April 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

It's probable the sons don't even know who their father is working for and why he had them go to KL.

Littlefinger keeps his hands clean, the Kettleblack sons don't know who they're really working for. The whole realm is working towards a Baelish rule; they just don't know it.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

David Selig, on 27 April 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Most likely it was the father of the Kettleblacks who hired the dwarves, all the rest were in KL and had no time to go to Pentos and back, plus clearly LF trusts him much more than his sons. But even if they know and confess it, so what? Hiring dwarves for entertainment is no crime. It's probable the sons don't even know who their father is working for and why he had them go to KL.

Exactly! Thank you. Next Scorpion Knight will be saying Jorah Mormont is implicated the murder of Amory Lorch, there was a dancing bear at the wedding,mormont's sigil is a bear, he's been seen in the company of two dwarves in slavers bay, there was a bear at Harrenhal....connect the dots people...I mean do you think questioners are stupid?

the Scorpion Knight, on 27 April 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

do you think the questioners are stupid? upon hearing the dwarfs are hired by the kettleblacks or even that they are spies on LF payroll might be enough to start an investigationon LF I think HE will be the subject of an surprise attack

Bart: So finally, we're all in agreement about what's going on with the adults.  Milhouse?
Milhouse: [steps up to blackboard] Ahem.  OK, here's what we've got: the Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people --
Bart: Thank you.
Milhouse: -- under the supervision of the reverse vampires --
Lisa: [sighs]
Milhouse: -- are forcing our parents to go to bed early in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner.  [sotto voce] We're through the looking glass, here, people...

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 27 April 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Woman of War]

I do not see Sansa thinking in terms of power and for the sake of it agreeing to another marriage sham. Not because grasping for power and fucking, married  or unmarried, in order to get it, is immoral for women but because it imo doesn't go along with Sansa's character as far as Martin gives it to us.
And, I seriously don't remember, does Sansa know that Tyrion has not been executed? Does she know that she is still married? Wouldn't she question LF about the legitimacy of a new marriage, about the possibility being stuck with "bastard" children because a new marriage would be invalid? And another marriage would be invalid even if Tyrion may never show up, the possibility of him being alive would be enough (highly unlikely for plot reasons but Sansa might consider that).  It would be highly reasonable for Sansa to consider the worst possibility: an illegitimate pregnancy definitely NOT from her legal husband, the social downfall for a noble girl.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

voodooqueen126, on 27 April 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Yes, and should Sansa defy Petyr by choosing to stay married to a husband who cannot protect her, then Petyr will rape her himself

Petyr will rape her? Petyr will rape her? I love that your speculative future tense fan fiction includes, conveniently, a lack of consent.

Quote

, or sell her to the Boltons, or to Cersei, or to Varys etc... The only way Sansa can stop being a pawn who could be mistreated in such a manner is for her to obtain power, and the easiest way to do that will be to marry Harry Harding. Thus insisting on the marriage to Tyrion, would be an insanely stupid move, since it would remove the easiest and most likely method Sansa has of gaining power, thus causing her to be subject to abuse.

If she doesn't want to marry hairy heiry doesn't that mean, hairy has already ready raped her... with his mind?

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 27 April 2012 - 07:49 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lyanna Stark, on 27 April 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

Because inside the tapestries, Sansa's and Tyrion's anullment can be found!!! On a more serious note, I agree with you, I think LF is overplaying his hand. We've seen it with Sansa that he acts rashly on certain matters. He could also not have foreseen F!Aegon landing in Westerors, as I think this came completely out of left field for a lot of people. LF also mentions Cersei is imploding faster than he thought she would, and that he thought he had more time. It could be that when things move too fast for LF, he needs to really press on to catch up. One of those things I think is the marriage annullment. Since it's been said a person needs to apply for the annullmemnt in person, can Sansa maybe apply for it in the presence of enough Septons/religious people and not have to go to Kings Landing, or does she have to go there? Sending a letter and singing it as herself could easily be falsified, so she needs something to verify her claim that she is indeed Sansa Stark. Especially since the new High Septon seems to be extremely strict. LF needs to somehow get this done to secure the Harry the Heir arrangement, although he did say himself a betrothal would work for Alayne. By end ADWD Sansa would be around 14, so LF has at the longest 2 more years before Sansa comes of age. Or one year, if we look at "Alayne's" given age.

Yeah that whole hairy heiry plan doesn't make any sense, I refuse to take it seriously until it ceases being ridiculous.

[jarl the climber]

I've argued that the whole annulment arguement is basically a red herring. If Sansa plays up the marriage and calls herself the Lady of Casterly Rock then her enemies will try to have the marriage anulled but if they know she wants to annul it they will oppose it. At the end of the day the only thing the HS cares about is if it was consumated.The Faith could try to try her on some charges like Joffs murder but anybody with common sense would stay away from having them do that. Giving her a pardon and letting her remarry would be the smart thing to do making a big deal about it is just going to bring skeletons out of the closet that would be better left there.

[Woman of War]

So it all depends on what Sansa wants: she has it in her hand to declare the marriage as consummated and therefore valid or not. Let's wait and see.
But why is everybody discussing so much about annullment? Has GRRM,  apart from the Tyrion/Tysha marriage, ever hinted at the possibility of any annullment at all? Where did this whole possibility ever come up in the books, I wonder? And Tyrion's first marriage was annulled although having been consummated because both were minors and Tywin had the power to arrange it.
Well, actually I do not care about divorce westerosi style. I only hope that Sansa may stop letting herself get pushed around as parcel with Winterfell gift wrapping.

[Lyanna Stark]

Woman of War, on 27 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

So it all depends on what Sansa wants: she has it in her hand to declare the marriage as consummated and therefore valid or not. Let's wait and see.
But why is everybody discussing so much about annullment? Has GRRM,  apart from the Tyrion/Tysha marriage, ever hinted at the possibility of any annullment at all? Where did this whole possibility ever come up in the books, I wonder? And Tyrion's first marriage was annulled although having been consummated because both were minors and Tywin had the power to arrange it.
Well, actually I do not care about divorce westerosi style. I only hope that Sansa may stop letting herself get pushed around as parcel with Winterfell gift wrapping.

Yes, the annulment bit has been stated here.

TWOW spoilers:

Spoiler

In the TWOW spoiler chapter Justin Massey says Asha's marriage can easily be set aside, and this is despite Asha not being anywhere near a maid. That was a marriage by proxy, granted, but also not consummated, same as Sansa's.

Fact of the matter is, Sansa's marriage *could* be set aside if she wished it to be. She could also claim that she was forced into it while a captive, which would help her claim that it should be set aside.

Now, I agree that for the moment it is advantageous for Sansa to remain married to Tyrion since it prevents LF to scheme something involving her immediate remarrying. But in the long run? Sansa does not seem keen on being married to Tyrion, or anyone for that matter!

[Darth Rivers]

the Scorpion Knight, on 27 April 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

on a paper given to him by the lannisters oh have it been mentioned that he does nothing there

And? That's the best claim of all the potential contenders, because he IS the lord paramount of the Riverlands. Sansa, OTOH, is not even close to having any claim on the lordship.

[Lyanna Stark]

Darth Rivers, on 27 April 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

And? That's the best claim of all the potential contenders, because he IS the lord paramount of the Riverlands. Sansa, OTOH, is not even close to having any claim on the lordship.

He has no soldiers, no armies, nothing. How is he going to force his claim? He needs support from the local lords. Sansa can give him that by being a Tully on her mother's side. Especially if Edmure and his potential child are out of the picture.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Petyr Middlefinger Baelish, on 27 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Littlefinger keeps his hands clean, the Kettleblack sons don't know who they're really working for. The whole realm is working towards a Baelish rule; they just don't know it.

they might lead to the father more than likely or even accidently blur out his name
they will  or even are certainly be tortured
lord baelish is diggin his grave

Darth Rivers, on 27 April 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

And? That's the best claim of all the potential contenders, because he IS the lord paramount of the Riverlands. Sansa, OTOH, is not even close to having any claim on the lordship.

Jaime controls the riverlands
baelish will meet laughter and deaf ears
@lyanna: thanks

[Lyanna Stark]

the Scorpion Knight, on 27 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Jaime controls the riverlands
baelish will meet laughter and deaf ears
@lyanna: thanks

Yeah, Jaime has managed to cobble together some sort of control, but now when Jaime is "lost", how long will it last? It seems the Riverlands are almost ripe for the taking. And I wonder how Riverrun will continue now with the lackwit Freys in charge. After the Red Wedding, giving Riverrun to the Freys is just....tasteless. I am sure that won't last long.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Lyanna Stark, on 27 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Yeah, Jaime has managed to cobble together some sort of control, but now when Jaime is "lost", how long will it last? It seems the Riverlands are almost ripe for the taking. And I wonder how Riverrun will continue now with the lackwit Freys in charge. After the Red Wedding, giving Riverrun to the Freys is just....tasteless. I am sure that won't last long.

especialy if he joins the BWB and helps restoring edmure tully (saving edmure , gemma and her family maybe roslins and her babys life whats  why I think he will do it ) the chaos for most lords will be perfect

[jarl the climber]

the Scorpion Knight, on 27 April 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

they might lead to the father more than likely or even accidently blur out his name
they will  or even are certainly be tortured
lord baelish is diggin his grave


Jaime controls the riverlands
baelish will meet laughter and deaf ears
@lyanna: thanks

Its possible that the Oswell, the Kettlebacks Father would betray Baelish to save his sons.

[the Scorpion Knight]

jarl the climber, on 27 April 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Its possible that the Oswell, the Kettlebacks Father would betray Baelish to save his sons.

also possible I haven't hought of that ( I think LF will ask why ?)