Jump to content


Photo

Littlefinger... [Book Spoilers]


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 WormofBook

WormofBook

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:51 PM

It is entirely a subjective matter, but I find Littlefinger to be a *super* interesting character that only really started getting interesting after he steals Sansa away.

I think that they are trying to give him screen time, because of how important he is later on... and how potentially compelling his story is.

I liked how he originally stopped himself from grabbing Cait's arm during their encounter, but then breaks down and professes his love... before returning to his cool and conniving self. It sort of foreshadows the mad brilliance that defines his interactions with Lysa.

#2 birdsong66

birdsong66

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 231 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 09:24 AM

IIRC, he did actually grasp her arm...she shook him off while asking if he had lost his mind. I think what they (HBO) had him stop himself from doing was actually throwing himself on her. But, I could be mistaken.

Also, suggesting that he knows where Sansa and Arya are, and that they are safe, allows him to still have a seat in the present/future at the Catelyn table, which, given her considerable repulsion, is the only one allowed him. I think D&D are firmly convinced of his complete and total obsession with her remaining to this day, and gaining fuel. YMMV, of course.

#3 TheWrongKindOfSnow

TheWrongKindOfSnow

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:35 AM

I agree that he's a very interesting character, and one of the ones who if anything I find more interesting in his television portrayal than in his book portrayal, as the television version has added a lot more charisma. He's interesting because he doesn't present as a key player in the battles for power, but he keeps you wondering whether he's going to surreptitiously end up winning more than anyone.

I wondered what the point was of him losing his composure around Catelyn in this episode? They made it clear that she's his one weakness, the one who has power over him as a consequence of his obsessive love for her, but I think that seems a bit cliche, and would hope his feelings maintain more complexity than that. I wouldn't necessarily agree with your point that the scene foreshadows his later relationship with Lysa, since (if they follow the books) with her he will be very much in control the whole time - and not a bit in love! I'm also not sure what the later transference of his affections onto Catelyn's daughter says about his feelings for Catelyn herself - his attraction to her is anything but a straightforward obsession. I thought that was better captured in the ambiguity of his offering her Ned's bones - does he genuinely care for her enough to respect her love for Ned, or is he just pretending to be sympathetic in order to win her favour?

#4 Capt Banjo

Capt Banjo

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 09:53 PM

I agree with the OP.

Anyone that has read the books knows the impact Littlefinger has in the future. I believe HBO is giving him some new material/scenes to keep him in the minds of unspoiled viewers.

As a reader, it was great to see what he has pulled off behind the scenes up to ADWD and some of it was a complete surprise. That was ok and did not feel out of place, it was great writing amidst hundreds of pages. TV viewers, on the other hand, are not as forgiving for big events/surprises that have no build up. HBO probably feels like with only 20 hours of TV by the end of season 2, it may be imperative to add more Littlefinger scenes/depth to keep him in sight and in the minds of viewers.

I have no doubt that GRRM and the HBO writers/directors will make Littlefinger's exploits and future plans just as exciting as they were in the book. It looks like we will just get some extra depth to keep newcomers interested. I can't wait to see it, I loved Littlefinger in the books and I am warming up to his TV character as this season progresses.

#5 Tadco26

Tadco26

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:10 AM

The problem is the "depth" they have created for him is contradictory to his book character. The most calculating and politically adept player is politcally clumsy in the show, constantly sticking his foot in his mouth and letting everyone know that he knows their secrets. Personally I think they added scenes because you can't keep a good actor under contract for multiple seasons without giving him some scenes. Unfortunately I think the vast majority of his scenes have been poorly written and instead of giving us more insight into his character, they have given us insight that is opposite his book character in so many ways. If they wanted to give insight, they could have him selling offices in the government for money, accepting and giving bribes, recieving reports from his spies, and all the while being the smiling friend to those in power who appears to be the loyal subject. As for TV audiences being unforgiving towards surprises, I disagree. LOST was a big hit in part because people loved speculating about the mysteries. Ben Linus was very much a Littlefinger like character who
Spoiler


Book Littlefinger is a master manipulator and investor who happens to own some brothels, while TV Littlefinger personally trains the whores in his brothels and can't keep a secret to himself to save his life. I fear that TV Littlefinger will require a huge suspension of disbelief to accept that he set up all these events dating back to before season 1 with his rise thru the court to master of coin due to Jon Arryn, and his murder at the hands of Lysa at his request, as well as the framing of Cersei for the deed.

#6 SerArthurHeath

SerArthurHeath

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,383 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:45 AM

Isn't his overarrogance in the show basically Obfuscating Stupidity/transparency? People see him as sneaky and untrustworthy but not as clever as he thinks he is and transparent, and thus people like Tyrion and Cersei think they can play him. Then it turns out he was double-bluffing, and he has had a gambit out from day zero and they were the ones being utterly played. He hasn't made any moves that realistically endanger him or his plans and his whole trick is based around letting people know that he is untrustworthy, but letting them think they know how clever he is, whilst all the time hiding subtlety under his surface. He can't hide that he is a slimeball whilst still being able to play his game, but he can use it too distract with more obvious ploys whilst he plays a deeper game.

I think it could work really well

#7 House Snow

House Snow

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 241 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:33 PM

Isn't his overarrogance in the show basically Obfuscating Stupidity/transparency? People see him as sneaky and untrustworthy but not as clever as he thinks he is and transparent, and thus people like Tyrion and Cersei think they can play him. Then it turns out he was double-bluffing, and he has had a gambit out from day zero and they were the ones being utterly played. He hasn't made any moves that realistically endanger him or his plans and his whole trick is based around letting people know that he is untrustworthy, but letting them think they know how clever he is, whilst all the time hiding subtlety under his surface. He can't hide that he is a slimeball whilst still being able to play his game, but he can use it too distract with more obvious ploys whilst he plays a deeper game.

I think it could work really well


I was actually thinking pretty much the same thing earlier today. It would be one thing if it were just the Cersei scene. But really every interaction with a major character -he appears to be bested. Catelyn, Tyrion, Varys, Cersei, Renly, Maegery, That feels like an act. And its in such contrast with the two scenes where he wasn't with any of the big guns. Even though people were ticked by the whores being there in both scene where he gave his biggest speechs, he clearly was most Littlefingeresque in those scenes. They even sort of foreshadowed this with the original whore scene. Tha being said I think he could use a scene reinforcing that his bluntness is part of the act, kind of an equivalent to the Pycelle scene at the end of last year.

#8 Skeksi

Skeksi

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 344 posts

Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:57 AM

Whilst Littlefinger has kind of been irking me with the way he's been written this season, since I do love the diabolical bastard so very much, I found his scenes in this episode to be some of the least irksome. We do see a lot more of his plotting and scheming nature this episode, IMO- we have him simultaneously making offers to Renly of stabbing the Lannisters in the back, whilst trying to persuade Catelyn to release Jaime as per Tyrion's plan, whilst seemingly trying to get back into Catelyn's good books- and, of course, his interactions with Margaery, which are a bit more of a mystery (but which I presume, given his role in the book, is likely to become more important). Is he just needling her about Renly, or is he perhaps trying to discover some dissatisfaction? Or perhaps whether the marriage has been consumated? I could be thinking overly hopefully here, but he seems pretty smirky following his conversation with Margaery, despite the fact that she doesn't seem to think very much of him. The only scene where he seems unsettled and not on his toes is the Catelyn scene- which is kind of understandable, I guess, given the role that she has in his backstory, but more than that, note that he is still composed enough to lie to her and make her think he knows Arya's location, and that he goes about carrying out Tyrion's plan of trying to free Jaime, which will weaken the North. This is the kind of Littlefinger stuff I've been waiting to see all season, not scenes where he acts either stupidly or is basically used to squeeze in the naked boobs quota with his brothels. It's just a shame it took until episode 4 to get it.

On another note, does Littlefinger sound more Welsh this series to anyone else? I mean, in the first few episodes, Aidan Gillen's accent seemed a little bit all over the place, but in this episode, whilst it sounded more consistent than it had for most of the series so far, it definitely sounded different from Series 1, and listening to it again, it definitely sounds a little more Welsh to me. I assume it's because Aidan Gillen was ill, or having trouble getting into the accent again, but it amused me given that LF is from the Vale of Arryn which is supposed to be based on Wales /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#9 WormofBook

WormofBook

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:46 PM

Bunch of good points here, I am definitely leaning between the writing making LF look more inept than he is, and the great suggestion that he is acting purposefully inept.

A redeeming scene for him to show that it was "all an act" could easily be built into a moment of revelation when he reveals all to Sansa.

#10 IronSuitor

IronSuitor

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 320 posts

Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:07 PM

The double bluff idea is a good point. It's actually making me re-think how I see the show's portrayal.

Up until his Sansa chapters I think he always came across more as a tricky bastard than a master manipulator. It's only by misdirection that he, and the show, can keep up the charade long enough to allow for a big payoff when they reveal just how in control he is. Everybody, including the viewer, already knows that he's an honorless endlessly ambitious SOB who knows more than anyone except Varys. It's only by seeming slightly undirected and clumsy that anyone would let him live. Allowing Cersei or Tyrion to think their getting the best of him let's them, and the viewer, write him off. (Oh, and it also gets him Harrenhall, the Riverlands, and the Vale).

Or .... maybe their just not doing a very good job of writing the necessary scenes to keep the actor on board. Or a mixture of the two.