72 replies to this topic

[dansnow]

Arthanis, on 27 April 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Danny no1 problem is Mereen siege, she will not abandon her people unless someone imprison her (not possible since same person will be forced to do something with her dragon). Prophercy also mention incoming meetings with Kraken, Dark Flame, Lion, Mummers Dragon and Griffin - all these persons are ATM West to Mereen.

I've read a theory that when Tyrion convinced Aegon to go to Westeros he broke the prophecy, so the rest could possibly change too based on certain events.

[Fire Eater]

dansnow, on 27 April 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

I've read a theory that when Tyrion convinced Aegon to go to Westeros he broke the prophecy, so the rest could possibly change too based on certain events.

I think Quaithe stated by intent at the time. Aegon and Griff meant to reach Dany, but Tyrion changed that; if Melisandre can misread visions, so can Quaithe.

[alienarea]

Arthanis, on 27 April 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Then best proof of Tyrion-Jon gay marriage and Others opening Shoe Shoop at the Wall is no logic in this scenario too?

Danny has different goals, she really care of her people. She has a extremely important reason to return Mereen, good reason to visit Westeros, some reasons to go Astapor/Yunkai, and absolutely no reason to go Asshai. Yes, battle of Mereen MAY change her goals, but I cannot see Dany even thinking of visiting Asshai.

Dany is a woman, Jon, Tyrion and the Others we have met so far aren't. :-)

Apologies, a little more serious: Dany is told she needs to go East to go West, and GRRM said no POV will go to Asshai. A hint that Dany might never get to Westeros? She won't go east so she can't go west.

[nufyat]

Archmaester, on 27 April 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

There is no reason why Dany can't just spend 1 establishing chapter with the khalasar, 1 or 2 journeying to Asshai, maybe 3 in Asshai itself and one flying over the sunset sea and landing in Westeros (6 or 7 chapters in total).

I totally agree. It's possible and writeable. However, this would mean that the next 2 books would be very different in their pace. It would be awesome but I just don't trust GRRM to manage it. Remember all the Arya chapters in book 2/3 where she wandered half the realm. Excessive traveling chapters are dominating in the last book, however they are also present in the other books. I'm not sure GRRM will be able to change his narrative style for the sake of the story to finish in place.

So I think in the end it will be the most likely interpretation: To go west (Westeros) you must go east (Essos/Meereen). Meaning she has to stay in Meereen so that certain things can happen and she can go to Westeros. In the end her whole book arch was about staying in Meereen. It wouldn't be a big surprise if that is meant by "going east". And everything indicates that after the battle of Meereen she will be able to go to Westeros (Aegon landed, Victarion, Yunkai defeated, possibly the Harpy identified, Meereen might govern itself, ...)

Edited by nufyat, 28 April 2012 - 04:36 AM.

[cuendillar]

Do we even know that a prophecy has to take place after it is told? It fit Dany's entire life story perfectly if the "to reach the west, you must go east" began with her birth on Dragonstone. The war forced her to flee to the Free Cities to gather the strength to reclaim Westeros - which is further west than Dragonstone. She could not reach the west, so Viserys took her east instead.

Another interpretation is, obviously, circumnavigation. You can go so far east that you end up in the west - without ever turning back.

That being said, I'm not sure she's ever going to come to Westeros. To her, it's never been more than the stories Viserys told her when she was little. She's never even been there herself - the only reason she wants to go there is due to her claim to the Iron Throne. That one's probably moot anyway, it pretty much expired when Robert was generally acknowledged as king and vapourized following the War of Five Kings. If she arrives, she'll be just another invader. Her place is as Queen of Meereen, and I hope someone tells her so.

[The Third Reed]

Any link to where GRRM said we won't see Asshai in a POV?

Either way, I do think that, even if Dany gets the Khalasar under her control, she will arrive in Westeros severely depleted. I have every feeling that Barristan's promise to the Tattered Prince (please call me out if I'm wrong re: him promising him Pentos) and the Dragon Horn are going to come round and bite Daenerys on the arse.

[Tytan Lannister]

Ok here's my theory:

Everyone seems to think that to go East means that Dany has to travel a LARGE distance east..like Asshai but may that isn't so...

Maybe the 'To go West you must go East" part been partly fullfilled. Isn't it possible Drogon flew Dany to the Eastern edge of Dothraki sea, near Lhazar. Here she Dany meets Khal Jhaqo and his Khalasar. Then she and Drogon could kill Jhaqo and since the Dothraki follow the strong...Dany gets herself a powerful Khalasar, allowing her to go West and regain Meereen...And maybe subsequently give her enough of a army to invade Westeros...

Edited by Skyler, 28 April 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Miriel, on 27 April 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

I have a vague recollection of GRRM saying no characters were going to go any further East than they have already gone ( so in other words, not to Asshai). Anyone else remember that?

Found a SSM entry with the following bit (this is from July 2011):

Tad: Will we ever see Asshai or the Shadow?

GRRM: You may hear about it and you may get flashback scenes from characters who have been there and you can puzzle it out on the internet. But I don’t know. I may return to write other stories set in this world.

It's not exactly what you said, but it's pretty relevant. We'll "hear about it." Uh, yeah, we already have George? Could mean that we'll see it in POV chapter. But, my gut feeling tells me the mention of "flashback scenes" is an indication that we will not do so.

Edited by Howlin' Howland Reed, 28 April 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[dansnow]

Howlin, on 28 April 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Found a SSM entry with the following bit (this is from July 2011):

Tad: Will we ever see Asshai or the Shadow?

GRRM: You may hear about it and you may get flashback scenes from characters who have been there and you can puzzle it out on the internet. But I don’t know. I may return to write other stories set in this world.

It's not exactly what you said, but it's pretty relevant. We'll "hear about it." Uh, yeah, we already have George? Could mean that we'll see it in POV chapter. But, my gut feeling tells me the mention of "flashback scenes" is an indication that we will not do so.

Could that mean he skips Dany going through and she immediately arrives in Westeros but may flashback to her journey? Probably not but it would be nice.

[princeofnothing]

It seems to me that Dany already has 'gone east,' if her starting point is Dragonstone, or even Pentos.

One thing that I've been musing over (I just re-read DWD), is what role Vicatarion and Moqorro will play. When I first read DWD, I thought Vic would get ahold of one or two dragons by becoming master of the horn, but I've been rethinking that. Moqorro's (and Benerro's) purpose appears to be strictly in service to Azor Ahai, whom they both believe to be Dany. And, unlike Melisandre (as far as the reader can tell), not one of Moqorro's visions has been wrong. He tells Vic that he sees tentacles wrapped about his neck and arms, to which Vic replies that he is no man's puppet. So, my thought is: Is Moqorro using Victarion to get him to Dany, conceivably to make her the master of the horn? And, ultimately, to have the iron fleet transport Dany's army back to Westeros? I caution myself about this theory when I consider Quaithe's warning not to trust the dark flame...

Thoughts?

Sorry, this post should have been elsewhere. I'm a newbie (to the site, not to the books).

Edited by princeofnothing, 28 April 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[Joffrey Stone]

Has there been any indication that its possible for a dragon to fly across an ocean?  How long would that take?  Could dragon and rider find enough small islands to stop and rest when needed?  If rest is needed.  

Dragon might be the fastest means of transport but its not the equivalent of a jet airplane in our world.

Now, if GRRM wants Drogon to circumnavigate the globe he could certainly devise a means for that to happen but what I'm curious about is if there has been any previous hints that this is possible.

[dansnow]

princeofnothing, on 28 April 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I caution myself about this theory when I consider Quaithe's warning not to trust the dark flame...

But Quaithe warned her against everyone, including Tyrion and Quentyn who imo are/were clearly on her side. I don't know what Quaithe's game plan is but she's clearly trying to manipulate Dany, maybe trying to prevent her from gaining allies? Until we know more about Quaithe's intentions it is hard to tell.

[facelessPAman]

Given the track record of visions and prophecies in aSoIaF, I wouldn't assume that Dany has to go east, west, north, south, up or down to get to Westeros. In fact, she may never make it to Westeros. There is still one betrayal left, and those have definitely been happening. Was Hizdar's bertrayal the betrayal for love and Ser Jorah the betrayal for gold? Or will her sellswords betray her. And, given that Jon just got poked full of holes at the end of aDwD, I wouldn't count on Dany living to make it to Westeros at all.
That said, I am looking forward to the chapter when Drogon turns Cersi into crispy critter.

[dreamcatcher]

Maybe Asshai will be something like the Grey Havens in the Lord of the Rings. Maybe that's where she goes in the end, when she realises she is just baaad at ruling people and her family wasn't what she thought they were, so she decides to retire and go travelling (because clearly that's what she loves best). Someone once mentioned Asshai to her so she's going there.

[romantic]

She may just stay in/around Slaver's Bay to put an end to slavery as she certainly dislikes it. She may have to stay there a long time to stop it because there are so many people dependent on it for their wealth and power and she doesn't want a repeat of the Astapor situation.

[nufyat]

princeofnothing, on 28 April 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

It seems to me that Dany already has 'gone east,' if her starting point is Dragonstone, or even Pentos.

I agree. "Go East" doesn't have to be a relative direction but can be an absolute one. Go East = Go to the eastern part of the world (Essos).
And she is already there. This interpretation makes the most sense IMO. Especially considering that there are not much Dany chapters left in this story. Finishing the Meereen story (the battle, meeting everyone necessary, taming the dragons, finding the Harpy, establishing peace in Meereen, finding a successor, establishing peace in Yunkai (!!!)...) will take at least 1 book if you include the start of traveling. I just dont think there's enough time for all these events to happen (timejump!!). I seriously hope the 1st chapter of TWoW starts directly with the battle on page 1.

[Tharvot]

I really think Dany's first chapter in TWoW is going to be her heading back to Mereen amidst the battle going on with the Ironborn and the Yunkai.  I could see her sweeping in with Drogon and her new khalasar to clean up and turn the tide.  It makes sense to me and will enable the POV characters to all converge upon each other.  

Wild guess, but I think it results in her, Selmy, Tyrion, and Victarion loading up on Vic's ships in order to exact revenge on Euron for tricking Vic into blowing the dragon horn and to get Dany's other dragons back.

[dragonfire613]

Archmaester, on 26 April 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Having recently re-read AGOT, it occurred to me how often Asshai is mentioned (several times by Jorah, once in Brans dream - with dragons). This leads me to believe that GRRM had at least originally planned for us to see Asshai, although I now keep hearing that he has said we won't be going there in the story.

However, I have thought long and hard about how the Essos story might unfold in the next book, and I believe it may be the most logical step to have Dany travel East to Asshai and beyond to Westeros.

here is my thinking:

• Dany will head to Asshai with the khalasar (after killing Jhaqo, as she promised in AGOT), where there will possibly be a storyline involving Quaithe so we might finally learn something about her - I predict she will betray Dany after luring her to Asshai with the prophecy. the khalasar will be destoyed by some Asshaii demons or something (we really don't what's out there, could be anything), but Dany and Drogon will escape and fly to westeros by the end of the book (provided not too many chapters are spent travelling to asshai).
  
• Following the battle at Meereen, Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan et al (whoever is still alive) will wait for Dany to return. When she doesn't, Tyrion will announce that they don't need her: thanks to Victarion's horn they already have 2 dragons, and Tyrion happens to know that they already have a Targaryen (fake or not) heading for westeros in the form of Aegon.
  
• They will head west, probably some of them via the demon road and the rest via Victarions ships. Along the way, we will have a naval battle with the Volantenes where the dragons will rip shit up. Meanwhile, amongst those that survive the demon road will be Barristan and the Tattered Prince; since Dany has conveniently chosen another route, the Tattered Prince is free to call on Barristan's promise that he will be given Pentos, so some event will go down there as well.
  
• This presents the prospect of, by books end, having Dany and Drogon arriving in the west of Westeros, and Victarion, Rhaegal and Viserion arriving in the East of Westeros. Add to this the battles at Meereen and possibly Asshai, Volantis and Pentos, and we have one awesome sounding Essos storyline. And this is without even thinking about all of the possible events in Westeros itself!

I realise I have made many assumptions here but it is all just speculation, and knowing the way GRRM likes to play with our expectations the majority of it will probably be completely wrong.

Thoughts?

Perhaps someone else mentioned it... but GRRM clearly stated that we will never see Asshai from POV... not that your theory couldn't work out that way, but I don't see him leaving us in the dark with Dany while she travels to/through Asshai and popping up suddenly in Westeros.  Plus, it's too simple for GRRM's tastes I think.  But I do like the theory

[Euphail]

The OP brings up some good ideas but it negates any resolution to what has happened in Slavers Bay. Dany tries (and is failing hard imo) to end slavery. If she doesn't return, all her work will be meaningless - even if Barristan manages to stem off the siege. A lot of the defense of Dany's actions in threads surrounds that she wants to do well, that she wants to help "her" people. If she leaves without setting things right, she is nothing but a butcher who used and disposed of a culture and its people because she couldn't be bothered to fix it.

I am all for Dany actually doing something with her dragons, and moving to a new place, but if she simply abandons Slaver's Bay without fixing what she has done (and setting up a stable long term governmental structure,) she will be cemented as a horrible person in my eyes.

[Lan the Clever]

princeofnothing, on 28 April 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

It seems to me that Dany already has 'gone east,' if her starting point is Dragonstone, or even Pentos.

One thing that I've been musing over (I just re-read DWD), is what role Vicatarion and Moqorro will play. When I first read DWD, I thought Vic would get ahold of one or two dragons by becoming master of the horn, but I've been rethinking that. Moqorro's (and Benerro's) purpose appears to be strictly in service to Azor Ahai, whom they both believe to be Dany. And, unlike Melisandre (as far as the reader can tell), not one of Moqorro's visions has been wrong. He tells Vic that he sees tentacles wrapped about his neck and arms, to which Vic replies that he is no man's puppet. So, my thought is: Is Moqorro using Victarion to get him to Dany, conceivably to make her the master of the horn? And, ultimately, to have the iron fleet transport Dany's army back to Westeros? I caution myself about this theory when I consider Quaithe's warning not to trust the dark flame...

Thoughts?

Sorry, this post should have been elsewhere. I'm a newbie (to the site, not to the books).

I agree with you.