The Wise Man's Fear VIII

[Sylvester]

I think that Faeriniel (I think that it's spelled that way) is an example of the way names change in stories, which is something that PR has shown already in other places (Imre->Amary for example, in Cob's story). So for me, Faeriniel=Myr Tariniel. Tariniel is supposed to be the capital of Ergen, the greatest city ever, and Faeriniel is where all roads meet. Makes sense to me.

[thistlepong]

Well, it would definitely explain why we hear so little about Tehlu & Pals in stories and the like. And if I recall, in Trapis's Tehlin mythos story, Tehlu appears to what's-her-face in a dream.

That's Perial, whom I mentioned. Perial's also the female lead in For All His Waiting where she's reputedly rather fond of nonmonogamous heterosexual intercourse. We hear kind of a lot about Tehlu, though. Don't we?

Still a little confused about ekpyrotic. Would a 1:1 relationship be necessary? For example, could one have pockets or such in the fabric of the difference planes (in the sense of universe, not the sense of infinite 2-dimensional space), leading to distortions in space or time? We see that there is not a 1:1 correlation with time, but it's not clear if it's a linear relationship, some other degree of magnitude, or an irregular, unpredictable one. And if time is not directly correlated, space ought not to be necessarily either. This would mean someone from the Four Corners could use Faen as a shortcut (or vice versa, depending), and would allow for the Cthaeh's tree to correspond to the Adem's tree, as suggested.I feel like I'm not expressing my thoughts on this subject clearly. I will attempt to illustrate what I mean with an exceptionally crude drawing, linked here, since embedding photos doesn't seem to be working.

Think of each of those lines as a two-dimensional analogue of the four-(or-more)-dimensional worlds. They come very close together at some points, and they are far apart at others. What is more, as you progress from a spatio-temporal location at a certain rate on one world, you may progress slower or faster in the other.This is how I think of the world. Is this consistent with an ekpyrotic system?And I don't understand your question about storms.

Have we determined that the Chandrian are using the Fae to pop up in the Four Corners?

I've often thought it was an odd coincidence that Kvothe's troupe was stopped by a fallen tree when they were attacked - like it was placed there to detain them in one spot - and there was also, IIRC, a grey stone nearby. Wasn't it also mentioned in a poem that the standing stones were one of the roads into Fae?

There could be the equivalent of "worm holes," marked by standing stones, if that makes any sense.

...or not.

The exceptionally crude drawing gets your point across just fine. I'm hesitant to just assume that's the way Faen works here. IIRC someone said that's how it worked in the Dresden Files; and it certainly works that way in lot of D&D. There's some vague evidence that time runs both faster and slower in different faerie stories, though. However, all we've seen is more apparent time passing in Faen than the Four Corners.

We don't really have any evidence the Chandrian are cutting through Faen. Or, if we do, we have the same evidence Tehlu&Pals are doing it, too. And we have no idea if they're using it to circumvent distance in any meaningful way.

"Something something'ell" is surely Myr Tariniel, Selitos's city. But as far as I remember, the only information about the location of Myr Tariniel that we have is that it was "in the mountains". Not very precise...

It could also have been Faenriel (or however it is spelled, I only remember its pronunciation). And wasn't there a theory according to which Myr Tariniel was in Faen?

“Like a drawstone even in our sleep

Standing stone by old road is the way

To lead you ever deeper into Fae.

Laystone as you lay in hill or dell

Greystone leads to something something ‘ell’.”

Myr Tariniel fits the meter. Faeriniel requires a modifier. Props to any text where I can search for something something and get two results :drool:

Yah, I think I threw out there that MT was a Faen city. I probably said it could even be Faeriniel. Had something to do with the "seven cities and one city" construction. That's inconsistent among versions, but it's the first we get. Perhaps it's meant to inform our view of the rest. It does, in any case. Most folks tend to assign priority to Skarpi's version.

It's also the one ruled and protected by a shaper, whereas the rest rely on strength of arms.

[Mixta]

Can we get an Amyr = Good Guys and Amyr = Bad Guys comparison/summary/analysis? I've recently been going through all the tagged posts on Page 1 (THANK YOU!) and have come across some posts that have left me confused because I haven't got all the facts. Help would be appreciaed!

[two_by_two]

Have we determined that the Chandrian are using the Fae to pop up in the Four Corners?

I've often thought it was an odd coincidence that Kvothe's troupe was stopped by a fallen tree when they were attacked - like it was placed there to detain them in one spot - and there was also, IIRC, a grey stone nearby. Wasn't it also mentioned in a poem that the standing stones were one of the roads into Fae?

No, we haven't. We suggested it might be a convenient method for them, but it seems potentially problematic as well, given that Faen is not necessarily a safer location for the Chandrian, especially since presumably T&P, etc can also easily switch between the two.

Perhaps the reason they found Kvothe's troupe when they did is because the waystone served as some sort of amplifier.

That's Perial, whom I mentioned. Perial's also the female lead in For All His Waiting where she's reputedly rather fond of nonmonogamous heterosexual intercourse. We hear kind of a lot about Tehlu, though. Don't we?

The exceptionally crude drawing gets your point across just fine. I'm hesitant to just assume that's the way Faen works here. IIRC someone said that's how it worked in the Dresden Files; and it certainly works that way in lot of D&D. There's some vague evidence that time runs both faster and slower in different faerie stories, though. However, all we've seen is more apparent time passing in Faen than the Four Corners.

We don't really have any evidence the Chandrian are cutting through Faen. Or, if we do, we have the same evidence Tehlu&Pals are doing it, too. And we have no idea if they're using it to circumvent distance in any meaningful way.

Ahh thank you. It seems likely to me (though I obviously have minimal recollection of that section, so this is going solely off that one sentence of yours) that the play may be a satirical piece directed against the followers of Menda (like Trapis). "Oh, so your Jesus figure was born to a virgin (widow?)? Well actually she just slept around a lot. Jesus indeed!"

Can we get an Amyr = Good Guys and Amyr = Bad Guys comparison/summary/analysis? I've recently been going through all the tagged posts on Page 1 (THANK YOU!) and have come across some posts that have left me confused because I haven't got all the facts. Help would be appreciaed!

Do you mean listing out actions of the Amyr that would fall under "stuff Good Guys would do" and "stuff Bad Guys would do"? Hooo that sounds like it could be quite a bit of work. And we don't know the full story behind any of these actions, so it's tricky to make that sort of assessment.

Good Guys:

Burned down the Library at Caluptena (that was the Amyr, right?): "Those guys had it coming" - possibly just a joke by Pat, possibly more telling

Advanced medical research

Deposed corrupt kings

Bad Guys:

Burned down the Library at Caluptena: destruction of knowledge is a very evil-villain thing to do

Conducted experiments on living people

Hideously corrupt themselves

I'm having a hard time pinning down what exactly the Amyr did. Of course, part of that might be because it's very late here and it's been a while since I've read the books.

[jumbles]

Can we get an Amyr = Good Guys and Amyr = Bad Guys comparison/summary/analysis? I've recently been going through all the tagged posts on Page 1 (THANK YOU!) and have come across some posts that have left me confused because I haven't got all the facts. Help would be appreciaed!

Well, first of all, what do you mean by "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys"? Do you mean "On Kvothe's Side" versus "Against Kvothe," or "Morally Good" versus "Morally Evil"? In either case I don't think you're going to get a good straightforward answer about whether they are "Good" or "Bad."

[Mixta]

Sorry, let me be a little more clear. I meant more in relation to the origin story of Lanre and the formation and purpose of the Amyr. This includes Selitos as a force for good/evil (of course, not necesarily good/evil, but you get the gist).

[Nisheeth]

But that still depends upon the definition of Good and Evil (or Good or Bad). They are matters of perspective.

Most probably, they are, like in real life, a neutral group, very reminiscent of The Knight's Templar.

So will you call Lanre as Good or Bad on his origin story?

[thistlepong]

Sorry, let me be a little more clear. I meant more in relation to the origin story of Lanre and the formation and purpose of the Amyr. This includes Selitos as a force for good/evil (of course, not necesarily good/evil, but you get the gist).

Zero presence before, during, and after the Lanre's betrayal. Come into existence in "Tehlu's Watchful Eye:"

"I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me. I see their hearts are pure. We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city. We will confound Lanre and any who follow him. Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good.”

Then there's this:

Unfortunately, Felurian wasn’t the mine of information I’d hoped. She knew stories of the Amyr, but they were thousands of years old.

So basically there's a four thousand year gap between the betrayal and the formation of the Aturan Empire, The Tehlin Church, and the Order Amyr, all of which roughly coincide. As a until they embarked on a seven hundred year war of conquest that fell apart shortly after the Amyr were ordered disbanded by the Tehlin Pontifex. Those Amyr inspired Illien's greatest work and entered into legend across the corners. They also abused their power and were associated with some of history's greatest atrocities.

Selitos in particular is probably a longer, less conclusive post. He cursed someone 'til the end of time (ish) for actions which may or may not have been justified or even deserved. Then he gathered up a posse dedicated to either destroying that guy and his allies or frustrating their efforts. He's a world class troll on a millennial scale.

[jumbles]

Can we get an Amyr = Good Guys and Amyr = Bad Guys comparison/summary/analysis? I've recently been going through all the tagged posts on Page 1 (THANK YOU!) and have come across some posts that have left me confused because I haven't got all the facts. Help would be appreciaed!

Sorry, let me be a little more clear. I meant more in relation to the origin story of Lanre and the formation and purpose of the Amyr. This includes Selitos as a force for good/evil (of course, not necesarily good/evil, but you get the gist).

Oh boy, that's a tall order. There are many different points that should probably be considered to get there.

First consider the founding of the Amyr as put forth by Skarpi. There is actually some disagreement as to who in that story becomes Amyr. Some believe it is Selitos and unnamed Ruach. Others believe it is Tehlu and his "angels."

If it's Tehlu & Pals, then according to Skarpi, they serve Aleph and "mete out justice to the world."

If it's Selitos, then their founding purpose was purportedly to confound Lanre and his followers (aka Chandrian). But was Selitos "Good" or "Bad"? Skarpi paints him and Myr Tariniel as good while Ash/Denna paint them as bad. There's also the theory that Selitos is the Cthaeh. Also, if Selitos is bad, does that mean that his followers were also bad?

Next, consider the current Amyr. Whoever they may have been, are the founding Amyr still alive? Could the Amyr have forgotten their purpose as Haliax suggests his Chandrian are doing? What is the difference between the human Amyr and the non-human Amyr? Do they share leadership/purpose? Why did the Tehlin church and the Amyr have a falling out? Who, if anyone, was in the right? Was it all of the Amyr or a portion of the Amyr that the church moved against? There are many deeds attributed to the Amyr, but were they done by the human Amyr or non-human Amyr? Maybe no Amyr were actually involved in some cases but they were given credit anyway. As far as their alleged atrocities go, could they actually have been working for the greater good? I don't think we have enough information to confidently judge the things they've allegedly done.

Hopefully this helps you a little, though it probably doesn't go as far as you hoped it would. Maybe others can add to this (or disagree with it).

[thistlepong]

The greater good is bovine excrement. It's identical to the lesser evil. So, yup, maybe their atrocities could be considered so with sufficient perspective. Nonetheless, still damnable.

[Tears of Lys]

I thought that was one of the series' mysteries - whether the Amyr are good or have they become as evil as what they were meant to fight.

WMF has one memorable scene, at least, that...

...highlights a famous site of atrocities committed by a human Amyr, the one near Sim's family's land. Kvothe plays dumb about the whole thing, even though the guy sounds like a Four Corners version of Dr. Mengele. This monster supposedly had "The greater good" inscribed somewhere in his medical book.

I've spoiled this since it's in WMF and this thread is TNotW, but there's a number of situations in both books that raise the question in the reader's mind about how good the Amyr really are. And thank goodness there are. Otherwise, this would be a straightforward, blah story, and it's not.

ETA: Well, shit. Never mind about the spoilering, actually. This IS a Wise Man's Fear thread. :bang:

ETA#2: FFS, if I'd read a bit more of the latest posts, I'd realize this point has been raised a lot.

Instead of editing out my goof, feel free to point and laugh.

[Sci-2]

Not a bad point to raise up again ToL, as I think Kvothe rationalizing his own actions to come will play a big part in the story.

I expect something especially dark to come from the fake pregnancy note.

[Mixta]

Lanre=Haliax in all versions except Master Ash's correct? If so, it feels safe to assume that the Chandarian are not good for the rest of society. The Amyr then may have began as a counter-force and the lost their ways. However, something scared the Chandarian when Cinder(?) spoke to Kvothe - I want to say this is related to the Amyr, but I am unsure. Remember, the caravan was near a waystone when it was attacked, so either the Chandarian, the Amyr?, or both could have entered/exited from the Fae.

Second, I kind of like the idea of Selitos as Ctaeh, but I don't believe the people guarding the world from him were/are successful in their task (or the task is in fact something different). I say this because Ctaeh could theoretically corrupt anyone who ever was near to him (or send them on a path that would free him or serve his means anyway).

[two_by_two]

Lanre=Haliax in all versions except Master Ash's correct? If so, it feels safe to assume that the Chandarian are not good for the rest of society. The Amyr then may have began as a counter-force and the lost their ways. However, something scared the Chandarian when Cinder(?) spoke to Kvothe - I want to say this is related to the Amyr, but I am unsure. Remember, the caravan was near a waystone when it was attacked, so either the Chandarian, the Amyr?, or both could have entered/exited from the Fae.

Second, I kind of like the idea of Selitos as Ctaeh, but I don't believe the people guarding the world from him were/are successful in their task (or the task is in fact something different). I say this because Ctaeh could theoretically corrupt anyone who ever was near to him (or send them on a path that would free him or serve his means anyway).

We only get one other version of the Lanre story, from Skarpi, which portrays Lanre/Haliax as "evil". Additionally, there is some implication from Arliden's song (he started with Lanre and then moved on to the Chandrian), but we don't hear enough of it to make an assessment. And if I recall, in Master Ash's, Lanre is still Haliax, but as a figure acting to preserve order and eliminate the corrupt Selitos, rather than vice versa.

And again, just because Lanre = Haliax doesn't mean that he's not "good". In all likelihood, such absolute terms as "good" and "evil" do not exist in this series. Rather, Lanre/Haliax is acting towards what he perceives as a desirable outcome (whatever that may be), and Selitos was/is acting towards what he perceives as a desirable outcome. These outcomes happen to be at odds (as far as we can tell), and, since we and Kvothe are only given Selitos's side of the story, we internalize that as "good" and the opposition as "evil". When we and Kvothe are given the other side of the story (by Denna), since it clashes with our already-internalized set of beliefs, we reject it as false outright, without considering the implications. That's part of what makes the story so nuanced.

And just because the Cthaeh could free itself doesn't mean it wants to. I've been toying with this thought for a few days now. In fairly short succession we are given two examples of withholding force in order to preserve elegance. Bredon, though a brutally masterful tak player, capable of defeating Kvothe in no time at all, holds back in order to play "a beautiful game". Similarly, shortly afterwards, when Kvothe is visiting the Adem, Vashet asks him why he is learning to fight. He responds something along the lines of "In order to be able to injure people." She throws him to the ground and nearly wrenches his arm off. I don't remember exactly how the rest of the conversation goes, but effectively it is another version of the "beautiful game" speech. Sure, the Cthaeh could free itself, but that wouldn't be fair. And more importantly, it wouldn't be fun. It wouldn't be a beautiful game. And what's the point of playing the game if it's not beautiful? If the world is to come to ruin, let it do so artistically.

[stumpzapper]

Myr Tariniel fits the meter. Faeriniel requires a modifier. Props to any text where I can search for something something and get two results :drool:

Yah, I think I threw out there that MT was a Faen city. I probably said it could even be Faeriniel. Had something to do with the "seven cities and one city" construction. That's inconsistent among versions, but it's the first we get. Perhaps it's meant to inform our view of the rest. It does, in any case. Most folks tend to assign priority to Skarpi's version.

It's also the one ruled and protected by a shaper, whereas the rest rely on strength of arms.

I agree that Myr Tarinriel fits the meter, but isn't MT in the "real world"? My grasp of the facts could be off, but my understanding of the story is as follows:

1) Iax and other shapers created the Fae and then tried to steal the moon, sparking the creation war.

2) Selitos, Lanre, Lanre's love (forget her name) fight an enemy in the creation war (presumably Iax) who is ultimately sealed behind the doors of stone.

3) MT is the city of Selitos that's later betrayed by Lanre.

So the creation war is - at least this is my impression - a battle between the Namers who are based in reality/the four corners and the Shapers who are based in the Fae. Why then would MT be in the Fae if it's enemy turf, so to speak?

I guess one variable is how long the Fae was around before Iax tried to steal the moon. Maybe the Shapers made the Fae and it was then populated by non-Shapers, including the Namers. If this is the case then the Fae would have to have been around for decades if not centuries before the creation war in order for a major city to be established within its borders, and Iax would have to be incredibly old (of course, Felurian is immortal, so maybe the people back in the days of the creation war were all immortal as well, sort of how all the people in the old testament are several hundred years old or how the elves are immortal in Tolkien's universe).

[Nisheeth]

I agree that Myr Tarinriel fits the meter, but isn't MT in the "real world"? My grasp of the facts could be off, but my understanding of the story is as follows:

1) Iax and other shapers created the Fae and then tried to steal the moon, sparking the creation war.

2) Selitos, Lanre, Lanre's love (forget her name) fight an enemy in the creation war (presumably Iax) who is ultimately sealed behind the doors of stone.

3) MT is the city of Selitos that's later betrayed by Lanre.

So the creation war is - at least this is my impression - a battle between the Namers who are based in reality/the four corners and the Shapers who are based in the Fae. Why then would MT be in the Fae if it's enemy turf, so to speak?

I guess one variable is how long the Fae was around before Iax tried to steal the moon. Maybe the Shapers made the Fae and it was then populated by non-Shapers, including the Namers. If this is the case then the Fae would have to have been around for decades if not centuries before the creation war in order for a major city to be established within its borders, and Iax would have to be incredibly old (of course, Felurian is immortal, so maybe the people back in the days of the creation war were all immortal as well, sort of how all the people in the old testament are several hundred years old or how the elves are immortal in Tolkien's universe).

The thing that sparked the creation war was, as I gathered, Iax's stealing of the moon.

We don't know if Stelios actually supported Iax, or opposed him.

So MT could very well have been in Fae, with Stelios as one of the shapers.

[thistlepong]

I agree that Myr Tarinriel fits the meter, but isn't MT in the "real world"? My grasp of the facts could be off, but my understanding of the story is as follows:

1) Iax and other shapers created the Fae and then tried to steal the moon, sparking the creation war.

2) Selitos, Lanre, Lanre's love (forget her name) fight an enemy in the creation war (presumably Iax) who is ultimately sealed behind the doors of stone.

3) MT is the city of Selitos that's later betrayed by Lanre.

So the creation war is - at least this is my impression - a battle between the Namers who are based in reality/the four corners and the Shapers who are based in the Fae. Why then would MT be in the Fae if it's enemy turf, so to speak?

I guess one variable is how long the Fae was around before Iax tried to steal the moon. Maybe the Shapers made the Fae and it was then populated by non-Shapers, including the Namers. If this is the case then the Fae would have to have been around for decades if not centuries before the creation war in order for a major city to be established within its borders, and Iax would have to be incredibly old (of course, Felurian is immortal, so maybe the people back in the days of the creation war were all immortal as well, sort of how all the people in the old testament are several hundred years old or how the elves are immortal in Tolkien's universe).

There's no real evidence that Myr Tariniel was in the vicinity of the area now known as the Four Corners. It's certainly an assumption we're invited to make. To whit, it could have been in the Stormwal Mountains at the western end of the Great Stone Road. That all fits just fine. On the other hand it's significantly different from the other seven cities in "Lanre Turned" to raise an eyebrow. It's ruled by a shaper. Selitos and and Lanre were both lords among their people. We might easily think mayor or local king or whatever. But the story is pretty clear about Lanre and Lyra forcing the cities of Ergen to unite. Myr Tariniel is the only city untouched by centuries of war. And the veracity of the story is called into question within the story.

yer list:

1) Iax and Jax almost force you to make a connection, but one's a name mentioned once in a tavern tale and the other is from (WoG) "an abbreviated, abridged, low brow version told around the campfire." Bast tells us Iax stole the moon, but it might be worth reconsidering. The fact is that the individual we know worried about who could match him with names is Selitos. Ayway, the rest is correct Shapers created Faen. One of them pullled the moon. The Empire made war on them for it.

2) Lanre and Lyra and their armies fought and largely won the creation war. Selitos, afaict, cowered in a tower.

3) Lanre (probably) orchestrated the betrayal of seven cities. One wasn't destroyed. Lanre showed up (the way I read it, showed up instead) at Myr Tariniel. Skarpi's version portrays a burdened, regretful Lanre with a confused, unclear relationship with Selitos. Denna's version reputedly shows a Lanre with the scales off his eyes, mocked and misused by Selitos.

One way the separation of seven cities and one city, seven battered and one untouched, makes sense is for them to be in different realms.

The thing that sparked the creation war was, as I gathered, Iax's stealing of the moon.

We don't know if Stelios actually supported Iax, or opposed him.

So MT could very well have been in Fae, with Stelios as one of the shapers.

See, this is part of why I like the Cthaeh as Selitos so much. We're told, by Bast, that Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon... that Lanre spoke to it before the betrayal... and on and on. We know Selitos has been around that long. He undoubtedly had a relationship with Iax and Lanre prior to those events. And there's no reason to make a malicious oracle in your fantasy playground. I don't think he supported Iax, I think he gave him enough rope to hang himself (and pretty much everyone else.)

[Nisheeth]

See, this is part of why I like the Cthaeh as Selitos so much. We're told, by Bast, that Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon... that Lanre spoke to it before the betrayal... and on and on. We know Selitos has been around that long. He undoubtedly had a relationship with Iax and Lanre prior to those events. And there's no reason to make a malicious oracle in your fantasy playground. I don't think he supported Iax, I think he gave him enough rope to hang himself (and pretty much everyone else.)

I remember that theory. And I liked it quite a bit as well. Especially everything connects together.

[Loslathdos]

I remember that theory. And I liked it quite a bit as well. Especially everything connects together.

I don't understand that theory, the Ctheath is a tree, Selitos is described as human, even in Denna's song, where he pierced his own eye in rage, plus why would the Ctheath rule and protect MT for so long

yer list:

1) Iax and Jax almost force you to make a connection, but one's a name mentioned once in a tavern tale and the other is from (WoG) "an abbreviated, abridged, low brow version told around the campfire." Bast tells us Iax stole the moon, but it might be worth reconsidering. The fact is that the individual we know worried about who could match him with names is Selitos. Ayway, the rest is correct Shapers created Faen. One of them pullled the moon. The Empire made war on them for it.

2) Lanre and Lyra and their armies fought and largely won the creation war. Selitos, afaict, cowered in a tower.

3) Lanre (probably) orchestrated the betrayal of seven cities. One wasn't destroyed. Lanre showed up (the way I read it, showed up instead) at Myr Tariniel. Skarpi's version portrays a burdened, regretful Lanre with a confused, unclear relationship with Selitos. Denna's version reputedly shows a Lanre with the scales off his eyes, mocked and misused by Selitos.

It was mentioned in Skarpi's stories that the reason the city was untouched was because Selitos could see dangers before they arrived so the city was always prepared,

[thistlepong]

I don't understand that theory, the Ctheath is a tree, Selitos is described as human, even in Denna's song, where he pierced his own eye in rage, plus why would the Ctheath rule and protect MT for so long

The Cthaeh is not a tree, no more than a man is a chair. The Cthaeh cannot leave the tree. Cthaeh, in other words, is bound to the tree.

Selitos lost an eye to gain better sight. And what better sight than all possible futures branching out from this moment?

Selitos would rule and protect Myr Tariniel for so long because it was his city, his people.

I'm fairly certain jumbles linked the theory, which you can find on page one.

It was mentioned in Skarpi's stories that the reason the city was untouched was because Selitos could see dangers before they arrived so the city was always prepared,

I know. And it was mentioned. And it doesn't in any way preclude anything I've said.