The Wise Man's Fear VIII

[thistlepong]

I remember him returning the book, but it won't be under Crucible, Mandrag or Alchem. It'll be under the next instance of Devi or Melcaf. Interesting stuff, but more of a seed bed of thoughts than anything conclusive or breakthrough.

Chapter 26: Trust

*featuring the sympathy fight where she dominates him, could be worth reading as a whole. Vision and Revision doesn't seem to be an Alchemical text.

I settled wearily into a chair. “I brought back your book.” I said, bringing it out from under my cloak and laying it on her desk.

She nodded at it, smiling a bit. “What did you think of good old Malcaf?”

“Dry. Wordy. Boring.”

“There weren’t any pictures either,” she said dryly. “But that’s beside the point.”

“His theories about perception as an active force were interesting,” I admitted. “But he writes like he’s afraid someone might actually understand him.”

Devi nodded, her mouth pursed. “That’s about what I thought too.” She reached across the desk and slid the book closer to herself. “What did you think about the chapter on proprioception?”

“He seemed to be arguing from a deep well of ignorance,” I said. “I’ve met people in the Medica with amputated limbs. I don’t think Malcaf ever has.”

[Spaßvogel]

One thing that just hit me from the skin-changer fight. The possessed guy says:

“Te varaiyn aroi Seathaloi vei mela,” he said in a deep voice

Does anyone think "Seathaloi" might be Selitos? Or maybe "those who follow Selitos" ?

I've been reading through the close-re-reading theads on the Tor blog. I recognize a few people from this board posting in those threads. :)

[lanceschaubert]

Well, that's a lot more literal than I was imagining, especially because Saicere, Caesura, and Kaysera the Poet Killer are merely different ways of looking at the same sword. Though maybe that's the key - finding the common thread in all the different descriptions of a thing and cutting away the distractions and differences until you get at the truth. Which is exactly what we're doing here, I suppose.

So maybe you Name several different swords and pick out the common bits - sort of like finding the Latin roots in English. Then, once you have the very basis, you can add on whatever frills you like until you have your ideal sword. I can't imagine how it has much to do with alchemy, but then, I know nothing about alchemy.

I thought Thistle said they were different swords? Regardless, the concept's what matters. As for alchemy, other than the unbinding of the principles of various swords and then amalgamating those principles back together, it does't have all that much to do with alchemy. Of course, at this point, I mixing terms with things I've said before. In this conversation, I'm just exploring Rothfuss' own usage of the word & concepts of Alchemy in his books, not first and foremost on literary alchemy. They may or may not overlap, but I wanted to hit the reset button and just tinker around with that particular magic system.

Clear as mud?

Vision and Revision doesn't seem to be an Alchemical text.

I settled wearily into a chair. “I brought back your book.” I said, bringing it out from under my cloak and laying it on her desk.

She nodded at it, smiling a bit. “What did you think of good old Malcaf?”

“Dry. Wordy. Boring.”

“There weren’t any pictures either,” she said dryly. “But that’s beside the point.”

“His theories about perception as an active force were interesting,” I admitted. “But he writes like he’s afraid someone might actually understand him.”

Devi nodded, her mouth pursed. “That’s about what I thought too.” She reached across the desk and slid the book closer to herself. “What did you think about the chapter on proprioception?”

“He seemed to be arguing from a deep well of ignorance,” I said. “I’ve met people in the Medica with amputated limbs. I don’t think Malcaf ever has.”

Hmm... the original reason I wondered about it being an Alchemical text was because of the young alchemist pawning it. Of course that same alchemist would be involved in other studies, so it's very likely that it's not.

Theory of active perception typically refers to perception & being the same thing, that when a person sees an action done, it is translates into an action that they do. This results in people often doing what they see others doing. You know a book by reading, a glass by drinking, a sword by sword fighting. They connected this to developmental problems and psychological disorders at one point. As for proprioception, it's the awareness of a body part in space where as kinesthesia is recognizing if that part moved. Bunch of boring concepts, if you ask me, mostly about the body as indicated by the Medica thing.

What's curious to me in this scene is the phrase "He writes like he's afraid someone might actually understand him." To which Devi says, "That's what I thought too."

My vote says Melcaf is a Medica textbook from an alchemist student down on his luck and the trail goes cold. But the agreement between Kvothe and Devi is curious, especially to the part of me that read all of the in-game books in Morrowwind.

I will try to go back to that chapter this week, though...

Anyone love or hate the lodestone-draccus-fae combination?

[Ninefingers]

Denna's letter

WMF, chapter 43

Has anyone figured out why words are capitalized out of place?

There are too many for it not to be intentional. Was Denna sending Kvothe a secret message?

YOOSSHCMTWFML

~ you should come to .....?

[bradd]

I think that's from one of the missing chapters, where we learn that Threpe is actually Manet, and he jams at the Eolian with Deoch

"You should come to watch freaking Manet live!"

:D

[Spaßvogel]

One of the Dresden books had a letter like that. I think Butcher made it that way and then cackled as we all tried our best to decipher it.

[Tears of Lys]

Denna's letter WMF, chapter 43 Has anyone figured out why words are capitalized out of place? There are too many for it not to be intentional. Was Denna sending Kvothe a secret message? YOOSSHCMTWFML ~ you should come to .....?

A while ago I said I would check to see if it meant anything in stenotype code. It doesn't. Not enough vowels for any words.

I even considered the letters corresponding to piano keys, but they're the wrong letters.

Maybe we should just take it at face value and ascribe it to her being drunk and random.

[Guest]

A while ago I said I would check to see if it meant anything in stenotype code. It doesn't. Not enough vowels for any words.

I even considered the letters corresponding to piano keys, but they're the wrong letters.

Maybe we should just take it at face value and ascribe it to her being drunk and random.

I think that we can at least be sure that the coded message ended with "fuck my life." I'm not sure about the rest.

[dbcooper]

To be more accurate, I'm pretty sure it ends with "Meanwhile The World Fucks My Life".

[bradd]

Funny that you mention Butcher there... one of the things on my todo list is to look at comparisons between the KKC and the Dresden Files. In a couple of PR's blog posts he's made passing reference to Dresden and he's mentioned explicitly in the Suvudu cage match between Kvothe and Aslan. I wonder how much Pat has been influenced by Jim Butcher? Here's a short list off the top of my head of similarities -

- The idea that everyone has a Name (capital N)

- The idea that a Name isn't a single word (like Rumpelstiltskin) but a complex succession of words/tones/notes

- Use of the "thaum" in magical energy (the magic Dresden performs is very similar to sympathy)

- The idea that there is a strong "link" between items that came from the same original source (eg the Play Doh web in Dresden Files)

- Similarities between Kvothe and Dresden (both have to help women, the "greater good", ignoring rules to stop the bad guy, etc)

That's just a few off the top of my head - sure they might be "common" ideas that are in lots of books, I just found it interesting :)

[Slick Mongoose]

A thaum has been universally established as the amount of magic needed to create one small white pigeon.

[bradd]

Thanks Mangosta - that was the point I was trying to make (in a round about way :)) I can find quite a few similarities between KKC and the Dresden Files, but they are all things that aren't unique to either book. Dresden's money problems at the start of the series which kinda vanish mid way through are another similarity. Whether what happens in the Dresden Files can imply something that's coming up in KKC is another story.... :)

[Spaßvogel]

Probably nothing, but in NOTW when Skarpi was telling the 2nd story, right before he got arrested:

"Ordal, the youngest of them all, who had never seen a thing die, stood bravely before Aleph, her golden hair bright with ribbon. And beside her came Andan, whose face was a mask with burning eyes, whose name meant anger."

It's funny, I was thinking...hmm, I wonder if one of these names is similar to any of the other characters, and then Andan, sorta Denna sideways, popped up. Probably just coincidence, but it was strange we don't get a gender for this character.

[The Marquis de Leech]

- The idea that everyone has a Name (capital N)

- The idea that a Name isn't a single word (like Rumpelstiltskin) but a complex succession of words/tones/notes

- Use of the "thaum" in magical energy (the magic Dresden performs is very similar to sympathy)

- The idea that there is a strong "link" between items that came from the same original source (eg the Play Doh web in Dresden Files)

- Similarities between Kvothe and Dresden (both have to help women, the "greater good", ignoring rules to stop the bad guy, etc)

I think this is stretching. If anything you could make a stronger case for similarities between Kvothe and Harry Potter: both have their parents murdered by an arch-villain, both go to a 'wizarding school' which has one nasty teacher and one nasty bully, both have a certain disregard for the rules...

[Slick Mongoose]

I'm actually curious now - What's the first instance of naming magic used in folklore or literature? I'm assuming it's very old, but maybe i'm wrong.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Magic based around the true names of things features heavily in Le Guin's Earthsea books (late 1960s/early 1970s), and that tends to be the example used in modern fantasy. I'd suspect the concept is a good deal older than that though.

[jumbles]

WMFc18

"There's a special way of thinking called Alar," Wilem said. "You believe something so strongly that it becomes so." He lifted up one drab and the other followed it. "I believe these two drabs are connected, so they are." Suddenly the other drab clattered to the tabletop. "If I stop believing, it stops being so."

Denna picked up the drab. "So it's like faith?" she said skeptically.

I can't help but wonder if there's a connection between this and Tehlinism, the Mender heresies, the clash over what the history books say, or what the Chandrian are doing.

Edit: Or what Denna and Ash are doing. Or what Skarpi was doing with his story. Or I guess this is getting to the point where I could just say what anybody is doing whenever they tell any story, heh.

[bradd]

So if everyone thinks Tehlu et al are "Gods", it makes them so? That's a really interesting idea... or if Kvothe thinks that he's Kote enough, it makes it so? :)

[two_by_two]

WMFc18

I can't help but wonder if there's a connection between this and Tehlinism, the Mender heresies, the clash over what the history books say, or what the Chandrian are doing.

Edit: Or what Denna and Ash are doing. Or what Skarpi was doing with his story. Or I guess this is getting to the point where I could just say what anybody is doing whenever they tell any story, heh.

Ohh that's a really interesting idea. Sort of like the gods in the Discworld or in American Gods. That's taking the idea that belief can affect reality to an entirely different level, one that I really like. It would mirror the themes going on currently, which is that Kvothe is becoming a hero because it's what people expect of him, or of that scullery maid who was a better princess than the real one.

ETA: Except on a bigger scale. So those two example I gave are people realizing potential because of others' beliefs. Tehlu et al becoming gods or whatever would be people exceeding their potential because of the power of belief.

[Angeleyes]

Denna's letter

WMF, chapter 43

Has anyone figured out why words are capitalized out of place?

There are too many for it not to be intentional. Was Denna sending Kvothe a secret message?

YOOSSHCMTWFML

~ you should come to .....?

I dabble in cryptography. One night I sat down and worked on the passage for a few hours, I don't have my notes anymore, but...

Simple Monoalphabetic Cipher:

-Hard to decipher due to short text.

-Unlikely due to back to back gemination "OOSS"

Viginere, Playfair, etc.

-Impossible to break due to length

So now we look at Steganography

I believe a handful of the capitalized words are short (3ish characters). This means it is unlikely that letters following the character within the word are what we are looking for. More likely that it is the preceding character (last character of the word before), or some variation thereof.

I was unable to make much sense of it at the time. Important numbers between Kvothe and Denna is only 7 as far as I know.

7 letters before or after capital yielded no results if I recall correctly. 7 words before/after capital might yield something interesting? One of the best ways to look for steganographic clues is to analyze for awkward words or speech patterns. I did not see anything immediately remarkable, which makes me think capitalization is a marker toward elsewhere in the letter that was previously written. i.e. the capitalized words were chosen after the letter had been written to point to something rather than the words themselves chosen.

Finally, I seem to recall paper being expensive in University (Kvothe has 3 pieces for a time?). If that is the case it is unlikely Denna wrote out the message then chose capitals. It is possible she composed it in her head (her and Kvothe seem more gifted at language than I) however it is more likely she only wrote it once. Which further strengthens the idea that the capitals are pointers to something written before that word rather than something to be written after.

If I wasn't in the middle of the last week of College I would get out the book and go more in depth but...

ETA: fixed two typos.