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The Wise Man's Fear VIII


thistlepong

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I have one issue with the doors of stone leading to Fae, based on what Felurian says to Kvothe about the boy who stole the moon - "I will not name him, even though he is shut beyond the doors of stone". It's the "even though" bit that gets me - Felurian seems scared of him and "even though" he is locked behind the doors of stone she won't name him. If the doors of stone led to the Fae, then grammatically that doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't preclude the doors from being in Fae, but it kinda counts against them leading to Fae - otherwise the fact that he was locked behind the doors of stone (ie in Fae) would be irrelevant. I didn't explain that very well, but does it make sense?

I have a kind of out there proposal for the doors of stone - I don't think I've seen this one proposed before and I doubt it's 100% correct, but it kind of makes sense... two things pushed me in this direction. First was Vashets story about the origins of the Adem (they were forced out of their original homeland and settled within Ademre) and the fact that Ademre isn't contained within the 4C (I'm guessing that's why it doesn't have a coloured border on PR's map). Second was the assumed location of Newarre and the scrael crossing the Stormwal (you can probably see where I'm going with this already).

I'm taking an educated guess here that the Empire of Ergen geographically covered the same territory as the 4C - we have guesses at locations for Tinue, Belen and Myr Tariniel and they all fit in this space. I'm thinking the simplest answer then for where the "enemy" came from is the only place connected to the 4C by land - across the Stormwal. It kind of makes sense too if you think about it - again, assuming MT is at the end of the Great Stone Road, it would be the "front line" against the enemy, trying to stop them crossing the Stormwal. With the Tahl living on the other side of Stormwal, this might make them descendants of the original enemy, and explain why the Chandrian fear the Singers.

So another idea - what if the doors of stone block off the passes through the Storwal? Think the passage under the Wall in ASOIAF. There may be one, or there may be several, but the neatest idea I've got is that there is one "main" set of doors contained in MT. It makes setting the enemy behind the doors of stone a bit more straightforward - the armies of Ergen push the enemy back through MT and the Stormwal then lock the gates. A bit of old school magic to ward the doors, and now the enemy is shut behind them. It may even explain the Lackless door - I've mentioned before that I think their lands are near the ruins of MT, maybe their door is one of these "doors of stone" and the only thing on the other side is a passage through the Stormwal?

As a general concept, I kind of like that idea - but if you want to go fully down the rabbit hole, I can take you one step further :) One guess on MT is that it's at the end of the road. Another guess is that it's in Fae. I think both of these can be correct if Fae is also on the other side of the Stormwal :)

I don't really have a lot of evidence to support this one which is why I say I'm not 100% convinced, but it sort of makes sense. When Fae was created, the world was cracked - maybe the Stormwal was "created" to divide Fae and the 4C. The 4C and Fae share a moon. This could work if they were on the same world. Yup, I agree that by the laws of astrodynamics it makes more sense to have the moon physically between Fae and 4C (one on either side) but maybe the moon travels N-S in this world, over the top of the Stormwal? And acknowledge the time of day/geography issue of Fae - I'm trying to figure out how this could work with multiple suns but I'm drawing a blank.... still its food for thought. I wonder if we all asked PR very nicely if he's supply us a map of the Fae? :)

I think that's a very interesting idea about the doors of stone; however, the second part is inconsistent. If you want to avoid the idea of the doors leading to Fae because of Felurian's statement about the enemy being shut away behind them, you shouldn't put Fae behind them - therefore, Fae shouldn't be behind the Stormwal. Also Fae breaks enough laws of the mortal world that it would take waaayyy too much explaining for them to exist in the same universe.

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1. More links between Kvothe and Tehlu. As has already been noticed, Kvothe's "power rode like a white star" on his brow, just like Tehlu and pals. Also, when Kvothe killed the Draccus, it was "almost as if Tehlu himself steered [the wheel] toward the beast with a vengeful hand."

2. Kvothe being the "son who brings the blood" just seems too cliche to me. Maybe instead it is Bast. Some people think he is the son of Kvothe and Felurian...

3. If the Cthaeh has similar powers to tinkers, that may be more proof that he was the tinker in Hespe's story.

4. Another piece of evidence that Dagon is Amyr. People shiver and shudder in his presence. In WMFc35, Nina shivered just looking at a picture of an Amyr that she made. I had argued before that he might be a Chandrian, now I don't know what I think.

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two_by_two - Completely agree the first and last paragraphs are inconsistent... I meant to add another part to the original post but my proof reading sucks :) The only way I can see the two working together is with poetic licence. Fae could be physically on the other side of the Stormwal but not the entire land on that side. So one region is Fae, another is where the enemy came from (for arguments sake, lets call it Manetsville) - if the enemy was confined to Manetsville then he'd be beyond the doors of stone but not within Fae. Yeah, not really a great theory - it's the only way I can make MT both in 4C and Fae (unless there are multiple versions). I do like the idea that'd where the enemy came from though :)

On whether or not Fae could be in 4C - what are the laws it breaks? I can think of two - the time of day and the whole "catching moonbeams" thing. Time of day could maybe be explained by a non-rotating planet (although I think technically you'd have temperature issues with that). The "catching moonbeams" thing could just be a matter of belief (maybe even one of the types of magic?). Maybe when Felurian "catches" them she is "naming" them and "shaping" them into a cloak - likewise when Kvothe relaxes and uses his sleeping mind he can "name" and manipulate them into the shaed?

ETA: jumbles, on Dagon - I like him as an Amyr, are you working on him being the 8th person on the vase? If so, I think there's a good chance that he's the one who didn't betray his city (of the original 8). If it's Tinue, that gives him reason to be in Vintas. It also gives him a reason to be on the vase without being a Chandrian.

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two_by_two - Completely agree the first and last paragraphs are inconsistent... I meant to add another part to the original post but my proof reading sucks :) The only way I can see the two working together is with poetic licence. Fae could be physically on the other side of the Stormwal but not the entire land on that side. So one region is Fae, another is where the enemy came from (for arguments sake, lets call it Manetsville) - if the enemy was confined to Manetsville then he'd be beyond the doors of stone but not within Fae. Yeah, not really a great theory - it's the only way I can make MT both in 4C and Fae (unless there are multiple versions). I do like the idea that'd where the enemy came from though :)

On whether or not Fae could be in 4C - what are the laws it breaks? I can think of two - the time of day and the whole "catching moonbeams" thing. Time of day could maybe be explained by a non-rotating planet (although I think technically you'd have temperature issues with that). The "catching moonbeams" thing could just be a matter of belief (maybe even one of the types of magic?). Maybe when Felurian "catches" them she is "naming" them and "shaping" them into a cloak - likewise when Kvothe relaxes and uses his sleeping mind he can "name" and manipulate them into the shaed?

ETA: jumbles, on Dagon - I like him as an Amyr, are you working on him being the 8th person on the vase? If so, I think there's a good chance that he's the one who didn't betray his city (of the original 8). If it's Tinue, that gives him reason to be in Vintas. It also gives him a reason to be on the vase without being a Chandrian.

Ah, my main issue was with the daylight thing, but it seems major enough to warrant the attention. I don't see anything weird about Felurian's making of the shaed - I was thinking more along the lines of her teleportation from 4C to Fae, but I guess that's odd enough as is.

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Hi Bradd.

I like your theory on the doors of stone. I'm trying to reconcile it with Kvothe talking about visiting the Tahl.

Im assuming the Tahl (the singers? Healers? Witch women? Sing to trees?) are on the other side of the Stormwahl mountains. Based on what Penthe says about her crossing the mountains to be hypothetically cured by the Tahl, the Adem know how to cross the mountains

From what I can see from the (unreliable?) map, leaving Ademre, and crossing mountains, would either take you into Modeg or east off the map (which I feel is the most likely destination of the Tahl, the other side of the Stormwahl mountains).

One way for your theory to be possible, is if Penthe's path to the Tahl is a route travelling along the spine of the mountains, parallel to the eastern borders of Modeg and Vintas, and going south off the map - then she wouldn't theoretically be crossing the mountains in a west-east direction but crossing north-south. Who knows what's in the south.

That way, she could cross the mountains while still leaving the Mountains uncrossed east-west, and only accessible by "doors of stone" at the base of the mountains (like in asoiaf).

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Hi Jez, good call - I completely forgot about Vashet talking about visiting the Tahl. :) I think there is evidence elsewhere that the Tahl are definitely over the Stormwal, and that they are singers (not necessarily the Singers the Chandrian mention, but I think it fits). I liked the idea that they are descendants of the enemy, but this kinda throws that theory out... only way I can see around it is if maybe the "warding" on the doors prevents the Tahl from entering the 4C, but not from other people crossing over? And that's weak at best... it stands to reason that there is some sort of interaction now that I think about it, or how else would the people of the 4C even know about the Tahl?

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Okay, I took a LOT of time to reread the threads in their entirety and collect and organize some of the better posts. I tried to select the first post where something was mentioned. If anyone thinks of a topic or post that should be added/removed, or thinks that the organization/presentation of posts should be changed, feel free to let me know. Right now the topics are presented in the approximate order that they were first brought up. I'll try to keep the list updated as the thread continues.

Laurian is Netalia Lackless

word

word

fionwe1987

Gaston de Foix

Pufferfish123

Denna is Netalia Lackless

AverageGuy

thistlepong

Sylvester

jumbles

Location of the Waystone Inn

Kuenjato

Lord of Starfall

Kvothe Loses His Name and His Skill with His Hand

TeaSpoon

AverageGuy

AverageGuy

Jurble

AverageGuy

stumpzapper

Master Ash is Cinder

Slick Mongoose

Slick Mongoose

wrathofdog

wrathofdog

Who's on Third

tze

jumbles

Master Ash is Bredon

Gaston de Foix

Two Dwarves Jousting

RogueSock

Rhaegar's Son

Chronicler is a Loeclos

Two Dwarves Jousting

Kote Means Disaster

Slick Mongoose

Lackless Rhymes

griffitt

Watson-Crick

thistlepong

Vordare

jumbles

Sylvester

jumbles

Loeclos Box Holds a Scrael

TeaSpoon

TeaSpoon

TeaSpoon

Kvothe is Amyr-like

TeaSpoon

TeaSpoon

The Tahl are the singers

AverageGuy

Copper

jaerken

mdcclv

thistlepong

AverageGuy

Rhinta, Rhinna, Rhinata, and Rhintae

alekhia

Gaston de Foix

Haliax and the Four Doors of the Mind

TeaSpoon

The House That Jax Built

TeaSpoon

Auri is Princess Ariel

thistlepong

Auri's Taborlinesque Gifts

thistlepong

Bast's and Felurian's Relationship

nonman_erratic

Denna Sweet-Eater

cypselus

Elodin is Manet

unJon

Haliax and Iax

SkiesOfAzel

Kvothe is a Chandrian

thistlepong

jumbles

El'the Means Listener

Damon

thistlepong

TeaSpoon

Kvothe is Like Tehlu & Pals (whom I will refer to as Angels for short)

john

The singers are the Angels

nonman_erratic

Sylvester

The Ruach, Adem, and Edema Ruh

thistlepong

AverageGuy

Banjo Fiend

stumpzapper

Skarpi Namer

unJon

Who's on Third

Alchemy Interpretation

lanceschaubert

Merihathor

Merihathor

Merihathor

Merihathor

lanceschaubert

jumbles - not interpretation; just lists instances of alchemy

lanceschaubert

singers Just Sing About the Chandrian

unJon

Name is a Key

Jurble

jumbles

Valaritas is a Sleeping Barrow King

Skia

Laclith

TheValyrianDragonlord

Skarpi, Sceop, and Hespe's Tinker

thistlepong

The Broken House is the Mortal World

thistlepong

The Loeclos Box is Made of Rhinna Wood

thistlepong

The Nameless Ring is for Denna

lanceschaubert

Caudicus is Cyphus

thistlepong

Kvothe Steals the Moon

Rhaegar's Son

The Nameless Ring is Copper

zottel

Denna and the Moon

Merihathor

Re'lar Loki

jumbles

Denna and the Wind, Kvothe and the Broken Tree

Angeleyes

Tinkers

Thaykora

Thaykora

Ben Wanted Kvothe to Remember the "Not Tally a Lot Less" Song

Kettricken

The Cthaeh is Encanis

Merihathor

Bredon is the "Stick by the Maer"

Watson-Crick

Bredon is Aculeus Lackless

Spaceman Hobbes

tze

tze

Sceop Means Speaker

RobMRobM

Sim Betrays Kvothe

thistlepong

Princess Ariel is Roderic's Daughter

Gaston de Foix

Dagon is a Chandrian

jumbles

jumbles

Abenthy Teaches Kvothe Yllish Knots

jumbles

The Eolian is Gone

jumbles

Devi is the Demon Kvothe Tricked

jumbles

jumbles

Ambrose is the Penitent King

thistlepong

Puppet is Amyr

jumbles

Dagon is Amyr

harvv

jumbles

The Cthaeh is Hespe's Tinker

jumbles

jumbles

Kvothe's Friends Are Dead

Kmmontandon

jumbles

Alveron is the Penitent King

gaillard

Lorren is Adem

jumbles

Geoffrey and Denna are Siblings

jumbles

The Nameless Ring is for the Moon

jumbles

Denna and Copper

Kmmontandon

Selitos is the Cthaeh (Loeclos Box Holds Obsidian)

thistlepong

Timeline

thistlepong

Kvothe's Rings and Angel Wings

jumbles

Kvothe and Tehlu

jumbles

jumbles

jumbles

jumbles

Kvothe has a Knack with Locks

bradd

jumbles

Viari is Amyr

jumbles

Imre Founded by Amyr

jumbles

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Jumbles, that is outrageously awesome!! Haven't clicked through the links, but this post is a keeper for sure. Thistle, can you import to one of your holding posts up front? And I vote we keep as new threads are created as a kind of FAQ.

Things missing:

1) Elodin is Manet. :P

2) The Locelos box holds a piece of obsidian.

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Bravo sir. Well done.

I have two things I want to bring up.

1) Thoughts on one of your other posts, jumbles:

3. If the Cthaeh has similar powers to tinkers, that may be more proof that he was the tinker in Hespe's story.

I hadn't thought of that before, but what does it imply? According to the story Jax is rude to the tinker (Tempi sort of hisses when it happens and Kvothe mentions that even the Adem know it's bad karma to be rude to a tinker). So does that mean Iax/Jax crossed the Cthaeh in some way? The only person we know crossed the Cthaeh in some way is Cinder: "maybe this Cinder did me a bad turn once. Maybe it amuses me to set a young pup like you snapping at his heels". I don't remotely believe that Cinder is Iax, but it could explain why Haliax controls him (after beating him in the creation war). Just kind of interesting.

2. I've never really put 2 and 2 together until bradd's post, but I wonder if Iax didn't originally come from beyond the Stormwal.In the story he lives in a borken house at the end of a long broken stone road. He packs up and head off to capture the moon. My theory (as well as others') is that he met Teccam at the original university (buried under the current one - hence the Underthing where Auri lives). If you look at PR's map the great stone road runs straight from the Stormwaal Mountains to the university.

http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/content/world.asp

So maybe bradd's on to something.

Additional semi-random thought: I know it's been brought up before that the Edema Ruh and the Adem mercenaries are offshoots of some sort of social precursor, but the last time I read through WMF I noticed an extra nugget that bolsters this idea. When Vashet is explaining the Ademre society to Kvothe she says that everyone has a place and that everyone contributes, and says they all form a circle of sorts (she even makes a circle with her thumb and forefinger to demonstrate). That's awfully similar to the Ruh's unbroken circle.

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Hopefully it's cool with jumbles that I added his post to the beginning of the thread. I'm not sure I want my names on some of those anymore, but it's for the greater good and all. My intention with the holding posts was to create A Movable FAQ.

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[ETA: I typed the title hastily. This thread and probably all links are spoiler heavy.]

thistlepong, fyi, if you edit the first post and choose Full Edit (not quick edit) you can change the title and subtitle of the thread.

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Wow! Really great discussion here, I think it would take me forever to read all the threads.

For myself, I loved both NOTW and WMF, I did think that NOTW was superior to WMF though they are both great.

Some of the points I have seen in here are very interesting to read however I think some are read into a bit to much, Felurian for one thing, I don't think she is created to be thought of as a rapist/serial killer, though I can see how some people might think that after reading some of the posts.

I don't think that Auri is some airheaded pixie either, I sometimes think that she is actually the beauty that Kvothe is in love with and not Denna. Might be a weird theory but she is talked about so much by Kvothe, and she has seen more of Kvothe than any other woman, when Kvothe was drugged by Ambrose and he was crying in his room because of the flood of memories, she was the one who came and cradled him and comforted him, that seems like a special connection to me and shows that Auri isn't as "cracked" as she is made out to be I think.

As for Kvothe himself, I really love the character, I have seen alot of people that dislike him or think of him as a bad person or arrogant etc. I feel sorry for him, the prologues of the books really get to me, the silence of 3 parts. Kvothe was a great person in his youth, though he is still young in body anyway, he helped alot of people, I guess I kind of feel like Bast, I really want Kvothe to return to his old self because I like him as that character. I dunno, its hard to put into words, but I really like him and understand him as a character I think.

Thanks.

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Wow! Really great discussion here, I think it would take me forever to read all the threads.

For myself, I loved both NOTW and WMF, I did think that NOTW was superior to WMF though they are both great.

Some of the points I have seen in here are very interesting to read however I think some are read into a bit to much, Felurian for one thing, I don't think she is created to be thought of as a rapist/serial killer, though I can see how some people might think that after reading some of the posts.

I don't think that Auri is some airheaded pixie either, I sometimes think that she is actually the beauty that Kvothe is in love with and not Denna. Might be a weird theory but she is talked about so much by Kvothe, and she has seen more of Kvothe than any other woman, when Kvothe was drugged by Ambrose and he was crying in his room because of the flood of memories, she was the one who came and cradled him and comforted him, that seems like a special connection to me and shows that Auri isn't as "cracked" as she is made out to be I think.

As for Kvothe himself, I really love the character, I have seen alot of people that dislike him or think of him as a bad person or arrogant etc. I feel sorry for him, the prologues of the books really get to me, the silence of 3 parts. Kvothe was a great person in his youth, though he is still young in body anyway, he helped alot of people, I guess I kind of feel like Bast, I really want Kvothe to return to his old self because I like him as that character. I dunno, its hard to put into words, but I really like him and understand him as a character I think.

Thanks.

About Auri, I don't think it is love, but a sense of protectiveness towards each other that they share. They are quite similar. They both believe the university to be their home, and don't have any where else to go to. They both live alone on their own. Both like Faerie stories (her behavior hints towards this, so does Kvothe's). There were some other similarities that I forget at the moment.

This similarity makes them want to protect each other more. I think it would be more of a brother-sister relationship between them.

As for why he is telling so much about her, she probably has some important role to play in D3.

About, Kvothe, I partly agree with you. I just don't agree that he was a great person in his youth. He was good, but not great.

@jumbles:

Wow! You are great! How long did it take you to reread the threads, and put it all together?

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Hopefully it's cool with jumbles that I added his post to the beginning of the thread. I'm not sure I want my names on some of those anymore, but it's for the greater good and all. My intention with the holding posts was to create A Movable FAQ.

I don't mind at all. Quite the opposite, I made the list to help people out, and at the front of the thread it will be more noticeable. So thanks for putting it up there!

And if anyone wants me to remove their credit for a post, I guess just send me a PM and I'll see about anonymizing the text for the link (though after clicking on it the poster's name will still show up with the post).

@jumbles:

Wow! You are great! How long did it take you to reread the threads, and put it all together?

I don't remember when exactly I started working on it, but I'll just guess that I spent about five weeks on it. Though included in those five weeks were a couple of almost week-long periods of not working on it at all, and many of the days that I worked on it I spent only a small amount of time on it.

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Some of the points I have seen in here are very interesting to read however I think some are read into a bit to much, Felurian for one thing, I don't think she is created to be thought of as a rapist/serial killer, though I can see how some people might think that after reading some of the posts.

I don't think that Auri is some airheaded pixie either, I sometimes think that she is actually the beauty that Kvothe is in love with and not Denna. Might be a weird theory but she is talked about so much by Kvothe, and she has seen more of Kvothe than any other woman, when Kvothe was drugged by Ambrose and he was crying in his room because of the flood of memories, she was the one who came and cradled him and comforted him, that seems like a special connection to me and shows that Auri isn't as "cracked" as she is made out to be I think.

Even if she's not meant to be thought of as a serial rapist, that doesn't mean we shouldn't think of her like that. Part of what we're doing is looking deeper into the things you might not want to look closer at, if that makes sense.

I've put some thought into the Auri situation, and I'm pretty positive she's not Kvothe's Epic Love. Right when he starts off his story to Chronicler, he says:

In some ways, it began when I heard her singing. Her voice twinning, mixing with my own. Her voice was like a portrait of her soul: wild as fire, sharp as shattered glass, sweet and clean as clover.

As far as I can remember, Denna is the only person who sings with Kvothe.

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Um, by what definition is Felurian not a rapist/killer? If she were male, you wouldn't think he-Felurian was creepy as fuck? What if he-Felurian could make you want him regardless of your sexuality? Felurian is basically one of Bakker's Inchoroi dressed in seductive flesh.

Kvothe is a sympathetic character, but a fundamentally flawed one. It's what makes the story interesting. I'd like to have seen him change more in WMF, but it is a mere year and most people don't change that much in a short time. Plus I think part of the tragedy is that he is put in situations where he could change but doesn't.

I wonder if he'll find out the Amyr helped kill off the Ruh for the "greater good"....

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The Amyr definitely didn't act to stop the policy, which would have included Tinkers as well. I threw out ay some point that the one ugly scar might be a broken circle brand. One of the questions raised was what Kvothe would do to earn it. Siding with those responsible for his people's genocide might qualify.

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