37 replies to this topic

[Sand Snake No. 9]

There seem to be only two unforgiveable sins (or absolute taboos, to leave religion out of it) in Westeros: violation of the Guest Right and kinslaying.  One who commits either of these acts is cursed by the old gods and the Seven, and his family, friends and neighbors ain't that happy either.  The guilty one might get killed by one of the victim's angry relatives or get some slow but certain karmic comeuppance and might even make a delicious entree at a wedding feast.  

GRRM tells us about the guest right and kinslaying from the beginning of AGOT, then he serves up a spectacular example of each; the Red Wedding and the murder of Tywin Lannister by his son Tyrion.

Slowly and steadily the Freys are paying for their sins, but will the worst ever happen to Tyrion?  The posters here don't think so, in fact, whenever a thread about the end of the series appears, a substantial number of them, if not a majority, predict that Tyrion will not only survive the saga but become Lord of Casterly Rock and Hand of the King, married to some fabulously beautiful highborn maid or other, partying with the ladies of the night, and so on and so forth.  But I don't agree, I think, like any good Lannister, he'll eventually have to pay his debt to the gods, his family, and society even though so far his plot armor has been impregnable.  Neither the power of the Iron Throne nor the power of gold can save a person cursed by the gods and the long-held beliefs of men.  More important, myths, legends, graphic novels* and the story of Bael the Bard tell us that nothing, nothing, justifies kinslaying in the eyes of gods and men.

Here's what I think might happen:  Tyrion finally claws his way up from slavery to Lordship, and just after some triumph he'll be killed, not by one of his many powerful enemies, but by some insignificant person he hasn't seriously harmed.

Or a bounty hunter finally gets the right head

Or Bron will kill him, for the right price, of course.

IMO, Tyrion's death has been telegraphed loud and clear and it will be written to make as big an impact as the deaths of Robb, Joffrey or Tywin.  Does anyone else out there agree?



*The Sandman series.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 27 April 2012 - 03:24 AM.

[Apple Martini]

To kind of talk about the kinslaying and guest-right violation for a sec, part of me thinks that the "curse" there is self-fulfilling. People exact vengeance on kinslayers and those who violate guest right. As you said, people are hanging Freys all the hell over the place. And they think that kinslayers and guest-right violators are cursed ... but that curse comes in the form of punishment exacted in revenge. If no one punished the Freys for breaking the guest right, they wouldn't be cursed.

To shift to Tyrion and the idea of kinslaying, I recall seeing a theory a few days ago — I can't remember whose it was, I apologize — suggesting that Tyrion was a chimera, a twin who "absorbed" (read: killed) his other twin in the womb. That would be one possible explanation for his mismatched eyes, and there is an obvious precedent for twins in the family. If Tyrion is a chimera, he would, in theory, have been a kinslayer since before he was even born. A superstitious sort might say that Tyrion's dwarfism and the contempt his family has for him is a "result" of the kinslaying "curse" that he doesn't even know he's committed. And that's only a theory — as you say, him killing Tywin actually happened.  

While I personally believe that Tyrion will probably survive the series, I can easily see why that might not be the case, as an extension of "punishment" Tyrion would get for killing his father. It might also be Tyrion's near-absurd plot armor up until now that sneakily indicates that he's on borrowed time.

[Fire Eater]

I agree that Tyrion may not survive the series. Tyrion is already considered to be a kinslayer by his father and sister since his mother died giving birth to him. Whether or not he dies before Cersei does is another matter.

[Apple Martini]

Crap, I forgot about Joanna. So this guy is "responsible" (insofar as a baby can be responsible) for killing his mother, and later killed his father, and he might have killed his own sibling in the womb.

[Winter's Knight]

Apple Martini, on 26 April 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Crap, I forgot about Joanna. So this guy is "responsible" (insofar as a baby can be responsible) for killing his mother, and later killed his father, and he might have killed his own sibling in the womb.

And he's accused of killing his nephew-perhaps it's a good thing Tytos dies early?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Apple Martini, on 26 April 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

To kind of talk about the kinslaying and guest-right violation for a sec, part of me thinks that the "curse" there is self-fulfilling. People exact vengeance on kinslayers and those who violate guest right. As you said, people are hanging Freys all the hell over the place. And they think that kinslayers and guest-right violators are cursed ... but that curse comes in the form of punishment exacted in revenge. If no one punished the Freys for breaking the guest right, they wouldn't be cursed.

Yes, men would do the killing.  The "curse" is that because of tradition and religion, the sin/crime of kinslaying is so abhorrent that a kinslayer cannot be allowed to live.  There is also a supernatural element lurking under the surface, as it does so often in asoiaf -- if it's not actually "gods" punishing the kinslayer there's something motivating others to do it.

I can think of a lot of characters or possible characters in real life that would want Tyrion dead, number one being whoever becomes heir in his absence, numbers 2 - 25 being everyone else in that line.   In addition, if Tyrion gets Casterly Rock he will be profiting from his crime, and most people find that repugnant.  Then, I imagine, there'd be the relatives of all the people he's screwed over or murdered, Janos Slynt's sons come to mind, and who knows, maybe GRRM will write in a brother for Shea or a son for Symon.  There's also that old stand-bye, Westeros' own Nemesis, UnCat.

Based on Jaime's weirwood dream, I'm pretty sure that Tyrion survives both Cersei and his brother, but after hammering on the sin of kinslaying, and only giving us one POV kinslayer, I just can't see him giving up the opportunity to kill another major character.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 20 October 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[Castel]

Quote

Based on Jaime's weirwood dream, I'm pretty sure that Tyrion survives both Cersei and his brother, but after hammering on the sin of kinslaying, and only giving us one POV kinslayer, I just can't see him giving up the opportunity to kill another major character.

I'm confused, are you arguing that Tyrion will be killed as Martin as punishment for kinslaying based on some divine taboo or something or the characters will get rid of him or that Martin will use the characters to do it?

I'm pretty certain however, that no matter what happens he won't be a lord anyway. If the incentive to kill him placed on his head by Cersei is removed I see no reason why he shouldn't flourish under someone elses protection. Not that anyone wants him.

Edited by Castel, 26 April 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[Hear Us Roar]

I don't see the guest right to be on the same level as kinslaying. As too Tyrion's survival, i don't think he can go back to Westeros as a kinslayer and a kingslayer

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Castel, on 26 April 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I'm confused, are you arguing that Tyrion will be killed as Martin as punishment for kinslaying based on some divine taboo or something or the characters will get rid of him or that Martin will use the characters to do it?

I'm pretty certain however, that no matter what happens he won't be a lord anyway. If the incentive to kill him placed on his head by Cersei is removed I see no reason why he shouldn't flourish under someone elses protection.

Actually there are two things going on:

(1) GRRM's story, in which he creates the taboo, the character that violates the taboo and becomes cursed, and the expectation that the curse will cause the death of the guilty character; and

(2) How the death of the character occurs.

GRRM sets up other curses, like the curse of Harrenhal which brings disaster to the person who holds and occupies Harrenhal.  Presumably, the "curse" has some supernatural origin, because all those people suffered some misfortune.  Those misfortunes, however, were all very different and in most cases their immediate cause was human intervention.  Thus the Harrenhal curse is shown to be real and effective.

The Frey's are "cursed" because they violated the guest right.  In their case, supernatural elements of the curse are evident because the Nemesis pursuing them is the resurrected Catelyn.  However they are actually killed in different ways, or at least under different circumstances in the case of the hangings, by men.  The guest right curse is shown to be real and effective.

Tyrion committed the most egregious crime of all, kinslaying.  If curses in Westeros are real and effective then he is also cursed.  The remaining question is how will the curse be fulfilled?

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 26 April 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[Maroucia]

Hear Us Roar, on 26 April 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

I don't see the guest right to be on the same level as kinslaying. As too Tyrion's survival, i don't think he can go back to Westeros as a kinslayer and a kingslayer

The red wedding was worse than just some regular guest right violation, it's beyond that.

First, it was a wedding, and if you think about it, once the marriage is done, the two families are supposed to become one. So by killing the Tullys (not ALL of them, I know, but at least Catelyn), the Freys were actually also doing some kinslaying.

And secondly, the RW is not a simple murder; it’s a high volume massacre!!!

Edited by Maroucia, 26 April 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[BondJamesBond]

Stannis is also a kinslayer though he didn't personally kill renly.  This is partly why I think he will end up on a pyre for R'hllor.

[flinky]

I’m starting to be a strong believer that Tyrion is Aery's son with Joanna - more as the last dragon was small and twisted and Tywin's comments to Tyrion

But everything is all speculation until we can get the next books - i highly doubt he will die, maybe another scar???

[Budj]

He may not be a kinslayer at all....per say....if some stretch theory is true.

Also, I'm in the camp that the curses are fulfilled by basic human desire...everyone hates the Freys...many houses suffered at the Red Wedding.  This is an abomination of an event from killing the King in the North under guest right and all the other families suffering personally just extrapolates the certainty that many Freys will be getting got.  Call it karma if you want...but it still driven by humanity.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Dont forget Tyrions greatest crime of all, defending Kings Landing against Stannis.

[Net-Viper X]

I think if Tyrion can manage to outlive Cersie then he will be fine. Its not like a single other person on the face of the planet was sad to see Tywin go, he was a cruel, monsterous, egotisical prick that stepped on people as a matter of course. The entire continent of Westeros is safer and better off now that the guy is dead. Most people will probably say how awful Tyrion is for killing his own father just to uphold tradition, even as they are high fiving Tyrion and slipping him a gold coin when their hands meet.

[Librarian of Lannisport]

This is slighly off topic, but is killing your wife kinslaying?  Or does it have to be someone of the same blood?  Because if a spouse is considered kin, than there's a lot of kinslayers running around - Cersei, The Mountain, Roose Bolton, etc.

But one thing that gets me as well - if Kinslaying is so horrible, why as Randyll Tarly so quick to threaten Sam with it?

[BondJamesBond]

flinky, on 26 April 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

[I'm starting to be a strong believer that Tyrion is Aery's son with Joanna

I actually think its Jaime and Cersei who are Aery's kids.  They share the Targaryen incest gene and Jaime killing mad king is just too juicy a plot twist.  Though it's interesting and ironic with Tyrion also.  I don't think it could possibly be all three though as targs.  That would be way too epic.

Librarian of Lannisport, on 26 April 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

This is slighly off topic, but is killing your wife kinslaying?

Unless you are a targ, no.  It will get you on westeros most wanted though.

[Silver Spearwife]

Librarian of Lannisport, on 26 April 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

But one thing that gets me as well - if Kinslaying is so horrible, why as Randyll Tarly so quick to threaten Sam with it?

He wasn't really quick about it. He'd been trying every other method he could think of for years. Besides, he knew what his craven son would do.


The Joanna thing is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Tywin had been beating Tyrion with the kinslaying thing for years, for something he really wasn't at fault for. So, chalk that one up to another ironic death. Congrats, Tywin, now Tyrion really is a kinslayer, indisputably.

So, what about Cersei? Tyrion's pretty intent on killing her, and she's pretty certain he's going to. Since we're imagining Tyrion's death anyway, what if she kills him, for her father, for the son he didn't kill, and to protect herself? She does it, she succeeds in beating the prophecy. The rest came true, but she was able to defeat this one part. And then, y'know, the real valonquar takes her out.

[Currawong]

BondJamesBond, on 26 April 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

I actually think its Jaime and Cersei who are Aery's kids.  They share the Targaryen incest gene and Jaime killing mad king is just too juicy a plot twist.  Though it's interesting and ironic with Tyrion also.  I don't think it could possibly be all three though as targs.  That would be way too epic.

No.  We've already got far too many bastards complicating the story, and if you start making every kid a bastard just because they don't happen to act like his / her parents but more like someone else, then the plot of ASOIAF soon becomes "please someone, just find me a legitimate child!"

[BondJamesBond]

Currawong, on 27 April 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

No.  We've already got far too many bastards complicating the story, and if you start making every kid a bastard just because they don't happen to act like his / her parents but more like someone else, then the plot of ASOIAF soon becomes "please someone, just find me a legitimate child!"

Westerosi contraceptives obviously are not very effective if Aerys even bothered to use them.