258 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

The original thread, which was locked due to awesomeness, may be read here.

The goal of this thread, and its predecessor, is to look a little deeper at the Azor Ahai (and Prince that was Promised) prophecies and toss around some alternative explanations.

Here are some of the most interesting ideas from the first thread:

1. When Melisandre is getting ready to burn "Mance," Jon overhears someone saying that it takes two kings to wake the dragon, first the father and then the son, so both die kings. Does this have a basis in the actual prophecy? Does it have to be a father and a son, or will any two kings "do" and Mance and his baby are conveniently there? If the two kings have already died, who are they?

2. Benerro says that Azor Ahai will usher in an unending summer, and those who serve him (or her) will rise from the dead. Deceptively attractive marketing? Actual prophetic material? Are they referring to goddamn wights?

3. Does smoke and salt mean what we think it does? Is it actual smoke and actual salt, or could it refer to, say, colors of a House? Does "from the sea" mean the actual sea, or might seawater frozen into ice … on a certain wall … also do? Do we differentiate between destructive fire (dragonfire) and life-giving fire (Winterfell's hot springs)?

4. Did the person who made the prophecy actually see smoke and salt, or did they see what they thought was smoke and salt? To a person who had never seen snow, snow might look like salt and mist might look like smoke.

5. Are we working with actual dragons or symbolic ones? The dragon has three heads, but is that three people, or one person? Might "heads" have an alternative meaning, like "crowns"? If this prophecy comes from a time when hatching a dragon wasn't a BFD, why does the prophecy treat it like one?  

6. One savior, or multiple saviors? Do we take the Ghost of High Heart's word that the Prince specifically must come from Aerys and Rhaella's line?

7. Is Azor Ahai actually meant to be a "good guy"? Is that the twist, that someone sold all along as a savior is actually an antagonist?

8. Are we interpreting the candidates and their roles in the right way? Might Jon, for instance, not be Azor Ahai, but rather Lightbringer?

9. If someone in the books is quite sure about what a prophetical interpretation means and who fits it, do we discard it?

10. Is Tze actually GRRM?

[Dacie]

So glad this is continuing!

And to answer your last point, I'd have to say yes. Tze is in fact GRRM  

[Arkash]

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4. Did the person who made the prophecy actually see smoke and salt, or did they see what they thought was smoke and salt? To a person who had never seen snow, snow might look like salt and mist might look like smoke.

One of the best things I've ever read about the damn prophecy...

[Fire Eater]

For the smoke and salt for Jon, there are multiple instances that can be taken:
1. The colors of smoke and salt (grey and white) being the colors of House Stark, Lyanna's house
2. The smoke and salt being the tears shed and the smoke being the destruction wrought during Robert's Rebellion, which Jon was born at the end of
3. The smoke(steam) from Jon's wound when he was stabbed and the slat from Marsh's tears
4. The smoked and salted meat storerooms where Jon's body could be stored

Benerro's talk about the endless summer and the dead coming to back to life in the cause is misguided in my opinion.

The hints from the Dunk and Egg saga could be clues to dragons in prophecy refer to Targaryens so Jon discovering his Targaryen identity could be the dragon waking from stone, and Dany's dragons could be a red herring.

The Ghost of High Heart is never wrong in her prophecies, and the PtwP could be Jon or Dany (my guess is it's Jon).

[butterbumps!]

Wow- I cloister myself for 3 weeks of finals and the most incredible thread thread happens.  I just got through all 22 pages of the last, and I have to say these are some of the most compelling interpretations of the prophesy I've seen.  

I might be really braindead, but has someone fully disaggregated the characteristics of all the prophetic figures?   As in, what are the differences between the Last Hero, PtwP, and AA?  I'll go in and do a search on the descriptions, but does anyone recall offhand?

[Winter's Knight]

butterbumps!, on 26 April 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Wow- I cloister myself for 3 weeks of finals and the most incredible thread thread happens.  I just got through all 22 pages of the last, and I have to say these are some of the most compelling interpretations of the prophesy I've seen.  

I might be really braindead, but has someone fully disaggregated the characteristics of all the prophetic figures?   As in, what are the differences between the Last Hero, PtwP, and AA?  I'll go in and do a search on the descriptions, but does anyone recall offhand?

AFAIR, The last hero has the Nissa Nissa story-he forges his sword. AA draws Lightbringer from flames,born amongst salt and smoke and TPTWP is the least characterised figure-we know from the Ghost of High Heart that s/he comes from Aerys and Rhaenys(sp?) line and the prophecy is in high Valerian and uses gender neutral terms according to Aemon.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Winter, on 26 April 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

AFAIR, The last hero has the Nissa Nissa story-he forges his sword. AA draws Lightbringer from flames,born amongst salt and smoke and TPTWP is the least characterised figure-we know from the Ghost of High Heart that s/he comes from Aerys and Rhaenys(sp?) line and the prophecy is in high Valerian and uses gender neutral terms according to Aemon.

The Last Hero comes from Old Nan, AA has the Nissa Nissa story from Sallador Saan.

From my memory, the differences between the three:

Last Hero- Old Nan's story, as I recall it: The long night falls and the Others invade South into Westeros, and after a long time the 'Last Hero' decides to go off and seek the Children of the Forest, he journeys North with a dog, a horse, and a dozen companions. I believe a sword is also mentioned, so it could be the original Lightbringer. He gets surrounded by the Others, and then Old Nan is cut off. But presumably he was successful.

Azor Ahai- Sallador Saan gives us the Nissa Nissa myth: three attempts to temper lightbringer. One using water, one using a lion, then one using his wife's heart.
Azor Ahai Reborn:
-Melisandre gives us the 'smoke and salt' part and the 'reborn' from the sea part. She also gives the dragons from stone and drawing Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, from the fire, IIRC
-On the subject of dragons from stone, since this was the start of the first thread: Mel(?) makes a comment about two Kings being sacrificed to wake the stone dragon, or something along those lines.
-Benerro says AAR will bring about the long summer and end an end to death

The Prince Who Was Promised- Melisandre and Aemon consider this to be the same person as AA. Other than that, the only specific feature of TPWWP is that the Ghost of High Heart says 'he' will be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 26 April 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 26 April 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

The Last Hero comes from Old Nan, AA has the Nissa Nissa story from Sallador Saan.

Wait, so he forges his own sword and draws it from the flames?

[Winter's Knight]

I have a...musing if you will, that  the three heads of the dragon are actually the three prophesied heroes-TPTWP,AA and The Lost Hero.

[Dragonfish]

Winter, on 26 April 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Wait, so he forges his own sword and draws it from the flames?

There are two versions of the story: the one Melisandre tells, and the one Sallador Saan tells. Just goes to show that all the different bits of info we've heard about the prophecies don't necessarily fit together coherently.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Winter, on 26 April 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Wait, so he forges his own sword and draws it from the flames?

Dragonfish, on 26 April 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

There are two versions of the story: the one Melisandre tells, and the one Sallador Saan tells. Just goes to show that all the different bits of info we've heard about the prophecies don't necessarily fit together coherently.

I don't think this counts as two versions of the story. I guess I should have separated Azor Ahai, and Azor Ahai Reborn. Azor Ahai originally tempered Lightbringer using Nissa Nissa, 'Azor Ahai come again' draws Lightbringer from the flames.

edit: Although I agree that the prophecies we have heard do not necessarily all fit together.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 26 April 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[Budj]

Winter, on 26 April 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I have a...musing if you will, that  the three heads of the dragon are actually the three prophesied heroes-TPTWP,AA and The Lost Hero.

If AA =/= tPtwP, then I tend to think this may have some merit too....

[Ser Pythagoras]

Jon is TPTWP Bran is the Last Hero Dany is AA Stannis is AAR they all team up to defeat the Others but then all turn on each other

[Euphail]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 26 April 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

The Prince Who Was Promised- Melisandre and Aemon consider this to be the same person as AA. Other than that, the only specific feature of TPWWP is that the Ghost of High Heart says 'he' will be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

Rhaegar also implies that his is the song of ice and fire. Though Rhaegar is not the most reliable with prophecies.

[Lord Ben]

It should be pointed out that if Jon is the Heir to the North as well as the R+L=J bit than he is in fact two kings all by himself.

One by decree of Robb's "will" and the other by blood.

Edited by Lord Ben, 26 April 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[Net-Viper X]

My memory is too poor to recall enough info at once to respond to every idea, but the one that allways stuck out to me was the thing about Mance and Kings blood. Mance was not a King, just some guy that decided to call himself one. He was never official recognized as far as I know and did not come from any form of Royal blood or family, so really burning him and his kid would be no different that burning any other wildling. Rhillor would not be fooled.

Edited by Net-Viper X, 26 April 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[flinky]

Euphail, on 26 April 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Rhaegar also implies that his is the song of ice and fire. Though Rhaegar is not the most reliable with prophecies.

is this an actual song? because Dany brings it up after the warlocks. ill look for it tomorrow

[DJP]

Hey guys, I've never posted here before but I've been swept up in the series and I'd like to share a few thoughts. I know people have already covered a lot of what I'm going to talk about, but maybe I'll bring something new to the discussion. I did spend the time reading what everyone else had to say, so maybe others will take time to read mine as well.

With Jon getting stabbed at the end of Dances w/ Dragons I'm wondering if he'll actually go ahead and die, allowing himself to literally be born again. Like I'm sure others have suggested his human form could be preserved below the wall in the ice rooms. Meanwhile his spirit could live on in Ghost for an indefinite amount of time, which has been shown with Sixskins above the wall. This has seemingly been hinted during the passage when Mel sees Jon in her flames then it flashes to Ghost and back to Jon. Maybe this frozen state could be the “stone dragon” that needs to be awoken or hatched? “Ice dragon” or something of the sort would make a lot more sense but GRRM wouldn't put in such an obvious point towards Jon. Also people have been talking about lost interpretations, and someone who has never seen ice could surely mistake it for stone.

That brings it to the question of how he would be “reborn”. The two most obvious candidates to facilitate this birth would be Melisandre and Bran/Bloodraven intervening with some kind of voodoo body exchange situation going on. My first instinct is that it would be Bran/Bloodraven, for a few reasons. Melisandre is in Stannis' AA corner for now, Jon hates Mel and worships the Old Gods, Bran obviously loves Jon, and Bloodraven was a Targaryan (though his alliances are unknown). It's possible that they may literally need “two kings to wake the dragon”, and that's not just a part that Mel added. The only kings around up north are Stannis, Mance, and MAYBE Theon. Perhaps some kind of Summerhall-esque tragedy takes two of their lives during a group attempt to bring Jon Snow back from the dead? Or perhaps Theon's pending doom at the Godswood will be enough with Bran's help to keep Jon alive.

Then I got to thinking, and with references to Mel's magic being “stronger” near the presence of the wall, maybe she is the more qualified candidate for the resurrection. Perhaps Jon's true lineage comes out after his “death”, and Mel realizes she has been seeing AA in her fires all along with all the Jon visions she had in DwD. She's already shown she has a taste for sacrifice, and turning on Stannis surely could bring about some powerful magic (with Mance/Theon and maybe Ghost thrown in the sacrifice stew as well). Heck, maybe Mel and Bran could even combine their powers for this momentous occasion. A location under the wall would surely fit the “Smoke and Salt” portion best if Mel was involved as well, especially since somebody mentioned the passage about the wall being salt water. It raises some other questions, with Snow believing in the Old Gods and not really trusting Mel, but his desperation at wanting to be human again could push him to trying it.

Jon just makes too much sense to me for him not to be TPWWP. His sword Longclaw is made of the Valyrian steel that will obviously be effective against the Others, so maybe “Lightbringer” isn't actually a sword that brings fire or light, but rather one that destroys the darkness. Along with the usual L+R=J scenario I just think this would be a very interesting fulfillment of the prophecy. Feel free to tell me I'm getting WAY ahead of myself.

[Apple Martini]

Lord Ben, on 26 April 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

It should be pointed out that if Jon is the Heir to the North as well as the R+L=J bit than he is in fact two kings all by himself.

One by decree of Robb's "will" and the other by blood.

This is actually where ... RevengeoftheStarks? They all run together — if I get the credit wrong, please correct me ... had the point about "three heads" meaning "three crowns." Their basis was, if Maggy's prophecy to Cersei can have "crowns" where it can mean "heads," why can't this prophecy have "heads" where it can mean "crowns"?

Using that interpretation, Jon's three crowns could King in the North (Robb's will), King in the South (Rhaegar's son), and King Beyond the Wall/Night's King (possibly bestowed by wildlings).

[butterbumps!]

Ok, so I know this is all familiar to everyone, but the nerd in me likes to look at textual patterns, so here's the more informative mentions of the Last Hero, Azor Ahai and the Prince thet was promised from the 5 books:  

AA:

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I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me.  The Jade Compendium.  The pages that told of Azor Ahai.  LIghtbringer was his sword.  Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed.  Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm.  In battle, the blade burned firey hot.  Once Azor Ahai fought a monster.  When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil.  Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.  (Sam)

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Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis.  Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophesy.  From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew.  She is Azor Ahai returned...and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end...death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn (Haldon)

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It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world.  To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, oh like none that had ever been.  And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires.  Heat and hammer and fold...Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.   ...The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first.  Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split.   Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.
A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summonded his wife.  "Nissa Nissa...bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world."  She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart.  It is said her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.  Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.  (Salladhor Saan)

(technically, Azor Ahai reborn):

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He is not dead.  Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark.  I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophesy.  When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.  Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.  (Melisandre)

Quote

In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.  In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword.  and that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.  (Melisandre)

The Prince that was Promised:

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"Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed.  "What better name for a king?"   "Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.  "He has a song," the man replied.  "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."  He looked up when he said it as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.  "There must be one more...The dragon has three heads."  (from Dany's visions in the HotU)

Quote

The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man's hour on earth is almost done.  We must act boldly, or all hope is lost.  Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hollor.  (Melisandre)

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You are he who must stand against the Other.  The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago.  The red comet was your herald.  You are the prince that was promised, and if you failm the world fails with you.  (Melisandre)

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No one ever looked for a girl,,,It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.  Rhaeger, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died.  He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophesy, for a comet had been seen above king's landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet... The error crept in from the translation.  Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.  The language misled us all for a thousand years.  Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke.  The dragons prove it.  (Maester Aemon)

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(On why Aerys and Rhaella wed): Your grandsire commanded it.A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line...[the woods witch] came to court with Jenny of Oldstones.  A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon.  A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.  (Ser Barristan)  

The Last Hero

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What do you know of fear/.  Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north.  Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides it face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.  The Others.  Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man.  There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels.  Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, their tears freeing on their cheeks...In that darkness, the Others came for the first time...They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.  They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain.  All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them...
Now, these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest.  Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch.  So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.  He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions.  For years he searched, until he despaired if ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities.  One by one his friends died...and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it.  And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and same silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders, big as hounds... (Old Nan)  [She's interrupted, and later Bran remembers "The children will him him!"]

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I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying the Others with a blade of dragonsteel.  Supposedly they could not stand against it.   (Sam)

So a few things-  Nissa Nissa's scream of ecstasy that broke the moon is reminiscent of Doreah, who tells of Dragons hatching from when one moon cracked open the other, spilling out dragons.  Also, I don't think Dragonsteel = Varyrian steel, but rather meteoric steel, such as the substance the blade Dawn is made of.        More things stand out to me as well, but as this post is already super long, I'll refrain for now.