258 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

DJP, on 26 April 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

<snip>

You're definitely not alone in thinking that something about Jon's stabbing will be a very important part of the prophecy, if in fact it is about Jon. That's kind of what Tze was getting at when she suggested that snow and steam could be mistaken for salt and smoke — Jon would be resurrected or have an epiphany or something at the Wall, and that's what the prophet actually "saw."

Someone had the theory that the people at the Wall would try to burn Jon's body or that Melisandre would try to do something to Jon using "fire" magic, and that the fire combined with the Wall's "ice" magic would have some batshit crazy effect.

[ARYa_Nym]

Quote

It's not reasonable to expect Ned to believe his word. The Others haven't been seen in 8,000 years (according to the histories) so why would he have any reason to believe the word of a deserter? He could simply have dismissed his claim as an excuse for desertion. The Others are like a myth to him and most other people in Westeros.

Sorry but this was in the last post and I didn't get to reply but on the matter of Ned not believing in the Others it's possible that either Ned, as Warden of the North, and Jeor Mormont, as LC of the NW, didn't keep in touch on these matters or Ned didn't believe him.

When Tyrion went to the Wall Jeor complained to him that the Long Night was coming and he needed to get people to listen. He said that fisherfolk near Eastwatch had seen White Walkers on their shores and that the mountain men had been fleeing south. It's likely that they've been appearing at random but who knows for how long.

[Eyron I]

The reason I brought up the 'ice - stone' issue was that if dragons are to be woken from stone, and dragons are interpreted to be Targaryens, is there any other good candidate apart from Jon frozen 'like stone'?

[butterbumps!]

I suppose I've never quite understood the timelines of each of these heroes, whether the Nights King had something to do with the never-ending winter, or who or what the Last Hero or Azor Ahai overcame.  The more I look over the passages, the more it appears that Azor Ahai and the PtwP are one in the same, or more accurately, that there was a guy named Azor Ahai fabled to return some day, and this is the PtwP.  I'm really curious about the part of AA that describes the monster he slew, making its blood boil and smoke.  Did he slay a dragon?   And what initially compelled AA to forge this magical sword anyway?  What threat was he explicitly facing?

I've never quite been able to pin down how each of these figures relate to each other.  I did think that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero might be explained as two cultural interpretations of the same myth, where a hero conquers winter/ the darkness, but I can't shake the feeling that some of this does not add up.  It's fitting to the words of the Night's Watch that the Last Hero may have been its founder, and that the story when brought to Asshai was mistranslated to a literal sword rather than the company of men who are the "swords in the darkness"  (And I say the story was brought East in that I always felt the Last Hero was more ancient than the Essosi incarnation).  But then what help precisely did he receive from the children, and how would that relate to the Night's Watch?  Because Bran does not exclaim "The men of the Night's Watch were banded together and helped conquer the darkness," but rather "the Children helped him!"  I'm assuming that the Children's help somehow pertained to the building of the Wall, but now that collides into the myths of Bran the Builder, who is frequently referenced but never mentioned as the Last Hero.

[Apple Martini]

^ I too think it's interesting that the Last Hero and Bran the Builder are referenced, but never confirmed to be the same or even hinted at as being the same. You can read the Last Hero story and the Azor Ahai myth and see a definite case of "two sides of the same coin" going on. But the PtwP is just kind of ... there.

[butterbumps!]

Yea- it seems like the PwP entirely refers to the second coming of AA, and is somewhat Targ-centric, at least by those who have knowledge of the prophesy.  I'm not sure I understand how Targs/ dragons really became part of the AAR/ PtwP issue since the Last Hero was almost certainly a Stark, and if AA = the Essosi version of the Last Hero, then I still don't see how the Targs relate to this in its original form.  Especially because they were the backwater Valyrians of yesteryear and particularly incompetent dragon-tenders.  But I suppose leave it to a Targ to see the word "special" and think it refers to them.

That aside, I don't necessarily subscribe to literal ice and fire being the main struggle of the series, but I do question why ice/ darkness is always the evil needing to be conquered in these legends.

[Lummel]

Net-Viper X, on 26 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

My memory is too poor to recall enough info at once to respond to every idea, but the one that allways stuck out to me was the thing about Mance and Kings blood. Mance was not a King, just some guy that decided to call himself one. He was never official recognized as far as I know and did not come from any form of Royal blood or family, so really burning him and his kid would be no different that burning any other wildling. Rhillor would not be fooled.

But all Kings and kingdoms start out with some guy deciding to call himself one.  In Davos' terms (thinking back to his conversation with Melisandre and Stannis after he had sent Edric Storm away) if you do what a King is supposed to do and protect your people then you are a King.

[Fire Eater]

Apple Martini, on 27 April 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

^ I too think it's interesting that the Last Hero and Bran the Builder are referenced, but never confirmed to be the same or even hinted at as being the same. You can read the Last Hero story and the Azor Ahai myth and see a definite case of "two sides of the same coin" going on. But the PtwP is just kind of ... there.

I have theorized that Brandon the Builder was the Last hero. He was the founder of House Stark, he chose the surname Stark to commemorate his experience alone as the last hero. Winterfell is also a hint, since the name implies it was commemorated for when the forces of winter fell in the War for Dawn.

I have a crackpot theory that when he saw the Others coming towards the Last Hero with ice spiders, in an act of desperation, he was probably before a heart tree and made a prayer asking for something to help his people fight the Others

Edited by Fire Eater, 27 April 2012 - 02:30 AM.

[Lummel]

butterbumps!, on 27 April 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

...I've never quite been able to pin down how each of these figures relate to each other.  I did think that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero might be explained as two cultural interpretations of the same myth, where a hero conquers winter/ the darkness, but I can't shake the feeling that some of this does not add up.  It's fitting to the words of the Night's Watch that the Last Hero may have been its founder, and that the story when brought to Asshai was mistranslated to a literal sword rather than the company of men who are the "swords in the darkness"  (And I say the story was brought East in that I always felt the Last Hero was more ancient than the Essosi incarnation).  But then what help precisely did he receive from the children, and how would that relate to the Night's Watch?  Because Bran does not exclaim "The men of the Night's Watch were banded together and helped conquer the darkness," but rather "the Children helped him!"  I'm assuming that the Children's help somehow pertained to the building of the Wall, but now that collides into the myths of Bran the Builder, who is frequently referenced but never mentioned as the Last Hero.

I'm very suspicious of aligning the Last Hero with Azor Ahai.  The only overlap in their stories is in the fragment that Sam mentions in AFFC (the last hero killing stuff with a dragonsteel sword) and that Azor Ahai killed stuff too.  Though I suppose in very general terms you could say that both stories are about a man receiving help from supernatural sources.  I'm not sure however that even if both myths come from a kernal of truth that this is significant.  The point of the stories might be to warn us that there is a cost to heroic action or more simply to provide motivation for the characters.

On the other hand notice how GRRM has drip feed us with teasing fragments about these myths and prophecies.  We don't know any of them all the way through, all we know is that they are convincing to the characters.  This might be because those stories would reveal a basic framework to us readers that would make the course of the rest of the ASOIAF story obvious and give too much away.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

My first impression of TPWWP was that he was destined to bring back dragons and restore the glory of the Targaryen dynasty, and anything he did besides that was incidental.  I still don't see a really good connection between TPWWP that the Targs obsessed over, and R'hllor's Azor Ahai.  

It appears that the priests of R'hllor were originally slaves, in Essos they mostly preach to slaves and common folk, and they look to Dany and her dragons to free them in spite of the fact that Valyrians and their dragons created the slave economy that prevails there.  They are not focused on the Long Night or the Great Other.  In Westeros there are two groups of R'hllorists, the smallfolk of the Riverlands converted by the BWB and Thoros that, as far as I know, are totally unaware of the threat gathering in the North and Mel's preoccupation with Stannis, Azor Ahai and the Others.  But what do these groups have to do with the Targaryens and TPWWP?  Not a whole lot, imo.

I'm rambling . . . carry on.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Apple Martini, on 26 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

The original thread, which was locked due to awesomeness, may be read here.

The goal of this thread, and its predecessor, is to look a little deeper at the Azor Ahai (and Prince that was Promised) prophecies and toss around some alternative explanations.

Here are some of the most interesting ideas from the first thread:

1. When Melisandre is getting ready to burn "Mance," Jon overhears someone saying that it takes two kings to wake the dragon, first the father and then the son, so both die kings. Does this have a basis in the actual prophecy? Does it have to be a father and a son, or will any two kings "do" and Mance and his baby are conveniently there? If the two kings have already died, who are they?

2. Benerro says that Azor Ahai will usher in an unending summer, and those who serve him (or her) will rise from the dead. Deceptively attractive marketing? Actual prophetic material? Are they referring to goddamn wights?

3. Does smoke and salt mean what we think it does? Is it actual smoke and actual salt, or could it refer to, say, colors of a House? Does "from the sea" mean the actual sea, or might seawater frozen into ice … on a certain wall … also do? Do we differentiate between destructive fire (dragonfire) and life-giving fire (Winterfell's hot springs)?

4. Did the person who made the prophecy actually see smoke and salt, or did they see what they thought was smoke and salt? To a person who had never seen snow, snow might look like salt and mist might look like smoke.

5. Are we working with actual dragons or symbolic ones? The dragon has three heads, but is that three people, or one person? Might "heads" have an alternative meaning, like "crowns"? If this prophecy comes from a time when hatching a dragon wasn't a BFD, why does the prophecy treat it like one?  

6. One savior, or multiple saviors? Do we take the Ghost of High Heart's word that the Prince specifically must come from Aerys and Rhaella's line?

7. Is Azor Ahai actually meant to be a "good guy"? Is that the twist, that someone sold all along as a savior is actually an antagonist?

8. Are we interpreting the candidates and their roles in the right way? Might Jon, for instance, not be Azor Ahai, but rather Lightbringer?

9. If someone in the books is quite sure about what a prophetical interpretation means and who fits it, do we discard it?

10. Is Tze actually GRRM?

OK, I'll try my interpretation of these.

1) Drogo and Rhaego kinda fits. But there is one other case of a king and his successor dying within minutes, even if they didn't die in fire: Aerys and Aegon. If Jon was born around the time of the sak (a not too unreasonable assumption), he'd be the dragon hatched at Starfall.

2) It seems that in the Long Night, people also come back from the dead - as wights. And I don't see the fire wights so far as particularly positive. Lady Stoneheart is hell-bent on her revenge... So while this looks like attractive marketing, I think it's also a warning telling us that a Long Summer is as undesirable as a Long Night.

3) I really like the 'Azor Ahai will be reborn in a food storeroom' interpretation. But then there's the sea.My question, thus, is if the sea is actually part of the prophecy? Or is it just Melisandre's interpretation of the 'salt'?

4) While snow might look like salt to a southerner, everybody should be accustomed to mist. But then, GRRM literally writes that Jon's wound smokes...

5) It's one dragon with three heads, and at least in the D&E stories, every single Targ is one dragon, not the entire house. So one Targaryen with three identities - Jon as Targ, Stark and Man of the Watch, or Dany as 'Mother', Dragon, and khaleesi.

6) We have seen no prophecies more reliable than those of the Ghost of High Heart, perhaps with the exception of Maggy the Frog. So yes, the only candidates for tPtwP should be descendants of Aerys and Rhaella, i.e., Jon and Dany.

7) We don't know yet, of course. I can very easily see the story of the Last Hero to be the same as that of the Night's King. Both are the thirteenth of a group. But if AA=LH=NK, that would mean that Azor Ahai indeed allied with the Others. It's quite convenient for GRRM that we don't know how the Last Hero escaped the White Walkers... Did he perhaps fall in love with one? Did he have to kill this other he hadd lovedd to finally forge the NW in its current form?
Part of this is that GRRM stated tht Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series was a uge inspiration. Something similar happens there.

Spoiler

The prophecy says that three legendary swords must come together to defeat the enemy. So the 'good guys' collect all the swords to be able to fight Big Bad... but the prophecy was written by a supporter of Big Bad, and the enemy in question is mankind...

8) No idea.

9) Well, we'll have to accept some outspoken theory at some point. But as long as there are several fitting candidates around, Azor Ahai does need to fulfill the prophecy, not only its conditions. You don't just need to tick the boxes, you need to walk the walk, too. So until we actually see someone fight the others...

Edited by theguyfromtheVale, 27 April 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[Lykos]

@Lummel
This is a great chapter of Davos.  There is a little bit of information on the Ptwp/AAR in it too.

Quote

You are he who must stand against the Other.  The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago.  The red comet was your herald.  You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.

@butterbumps!
I´m very curious about the monster slayn by Lightbringer too.  It would be interesting to look at the description of the dissolving White Walker Sam slew, for possible resemblances.  
As to the Targaryens and their status in Valyria and their capability of dragon tending, I think they were always intended instruments of the followers of Rh´llor (see post # 410 last thread).  Either as backup plan in case the doom couldn´t be averted or because they were the most gullible.  But something went wrong, Aegon made a pact with Torrhen Stark and took on the Faith of the Seven.
They successfully bred at least three more dragons, they visited Winterfell with half the Court and six dragons and seemed to do nothing against the "Children" or their pact.  This was probably due to the influence of Good Queen Alysanne and Septon Barth, who wrote Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns:  Their Unnatural History.
Then came the dance of the dragons and from then on the Targaryens really failed at dragon tending.  9 mages couldn´t help Aegon III "The Dragonbane" hatch dragons, probably he had some misgivings about it, since he saw his mother being killed by one.  Baelor I "The Blessed" prayed over the eggs without success.  I think he misunderstood what Septon Barth had written about faith being needed to hatch dragons, assuming the Septon must have referred to the Faith of the Seven.  In his disappointment he ordered the destruction of the books.  I think the Targaryens were fed with prophesies to make them obtain dragons in order to strengthen a certain kind of magic, but I think they were under the influence of opposing  factions ever since they conquered Westeros.
A quote from Egg.  

Spoiler

Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron's dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy.

[ARYa_Nym]

There are three Targaryens who may have a royal title but the third head doesn't really have to be a Targ so it can open up more possibilities.

I don't think that Jon is the king of the wildlings though. & it's unclear if he's heir to the North. He has to accept and it depends on how the will is worded. Or the Northmen may no longer care and move on to Ned's trueborn sons so they may not go through with releasing him from his vows as Robb wished.

EDIT: If you think about it Jon at present has no royal title until he is released from his vows. I shall wear no crown.

The only title someone in the NW has had is Night's King and that didn't go over well the last time.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 27 April 2012 - 04:15 AM.

[Lykos]

@Sand Snake No. 9
There is a nice thread on slavery.  You reminded me of a picture that formed in my mind of Dany being like Moses.  Leading her ragged khalasar and the freed men to the promised land.  She gets to see it but will never set foot on it.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Scanning the long list of quotes posted by butterbumps! on page 1, I realized that I'd forgotten that Mel refers to the PTWP title more than once in the books. Yeah, yeah, I know, "anything Mel says cannot be trusted." But she didn't make the AAR prophecy up, she heard it from somewhere. And it's just as likely that someone else had connected the dots between AAR and PTWP before her, rather than her doing it herself.

[Lummel]

I have wondered if Rhaegar made that connection too.  If you were seeking to understand the targaryen prophecies and casting around for some other information to fill them out, provide a bit of context and try to understand them then you might seize on Azor Ahai as being something similar.

There are red temples in Dorne and Oldtown and Aemon Targaryen was certainly aware of the Azor Ahai prophecy to some extent so the information would probably have been available in Westeros if Rhaegar had been looking for it - but this is just speculation of course.

[etu]

ARYa_Nym, on 27 April 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

There are three Targaryens who may have a royal title but the third head doesn't really have to be a Targ so it can open up more possibilities.

I don't think that Jon is the king of the wildlings though. & it's unclear if he's heir to the North. He has to accept and it depends on how the will is worded. Or the Northmen may no longer care and move on to Ned's trueborn sons so they may not go through with releasing him from his vows as Robb wished.

EDIT: If you think about it Jon at present has no royal title until he is released from his vows. I shall wear no crown.

The only title someone in the NW has had is Night's King and that didn't go over well the last time.

Assuming that Jon's watch will be over soon - major assumption I know - it is possible that the Wildlings might well choose Jon as their leader/king. It is clear many of them respect him. A Jon/Val marriage has been hinted at. I'm not certain I back the theory, but I'd definitely see it as possible.

The more I read, and the more I consider Martin's desire to make things grey, the more I wonder if Azor Ahai will actually be a good thing. Never ending summer and cessation of death don't sound likely entirely good things - and maybe Jon's role, balanced between Ice and Fire, is to somehow make peace between them.

Maybe. It sounds pretty crackpot, but...

[ARYa_Nym]

etu, on 27 April 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Assuming that Jon's watch will be over soon - major assumption I know - it is possible that the Wildlings might well choose Jon as their leader/king. It is clear many of them respect him. A Jon/Val marriage has been hinted at. I'm not certain I back the theory, but I'd definitely see it as possible.

The more I read, and the more I consider Martin's desire to make things grey, the more I wonder if Azor Ahai will actually be a good thing. Never ending summer and cessation of death don't sound likely entirely good things - and maybe Jon's role, balanced between Ice and Fire, is to somehow make peace between them.

Maybe. It sounds pretty crackpot, but...

Mance would have to be out of the picture.

I'm sure the poster on here fassreiter can explain it better than I but I think it would be ridiculous for him to be king of the wildlings. He pretended to be one for a little while. He was never really loyal to them and left to go back to the NW. He allied with Stannis who kept some of them and their children hostage. They do have some reason to be grateful to him but at the same time It doesn't make sense to me that they would make him their king when they can choose one of their own.

To your second point it's possible. Even in the tales of the prophecy AA doesn't sound like a good person.

[etu]

ARYa_Nym, on 27 April 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Mance would have to be out of the picture.

I'm sure the poster on here fassreiter can explain it better than I but I think it would be ridiculous for him to be king of the wildlings. He pretended to be one for a little while. He was never really loyal to them and left to go back to the NW. He allied with Stannis who kept some of them and their children hostage. They do have some reason to be grateful to him but at the same time It doesn't make sense to me that they would make him their king when they can choose one of their own.

To your second point it's possible. Even in the tales of the prophecy AA doesn't sound like a good person.

I am shaky on events in the last book, so might be wrong, but last I looked Mance's long term survival did not look good. I see no reason to think he will be in the picture that much longer.

I don't think the Wildlings greatly love him, no. But it seems to me the Wildlings pick their kings partially to keep them safe from outsiders, and partially to keep them safe from the king (might makes right). If they respect Jon - and Tormund certainly does - and believe following him is the best path to safety, I can see it.

Also, it would be mildly ironic if after Stannis' "You'll marry Val, and they'll all follow you, and that's that" and Jon's "Uhm... not *quite* how it works", they ended up following him anyway. However, I am not exactly sold on the theory, and am content to disagree.



And no, AA doesn't... (shooting utterly from the hip here) if we're working off a three heads of the Dragons, Fire/Ice/Both, all of them being seperate and so on... its quite possible Dany will be AA and that at some point she will get all mad and burinating. Its not exactly untrodden ground for her after all. And Jon has to talk her down. And possibly has to talk Bran down from some sort of madness, possibly girl related given a) the Night's King stories, and His obvious crush of Meera. That, or kill his aunt and brother. Hmm... I am almost certainly wrong with a lot of that, but hopefully it will spark ideas in someone more sane!

[Dr. Pepper]

I've always believed that Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised were one and the same.  I got to thinking about some things with the Dothraki and these thoughts started rolling around in my head.  Sort of crackpot-ish, not exactly a theory as more trying to piece together some possible connections I found.

1. The Dothraki: They are described as copper-skinned with dark hair and eyes.  Their spirituality is very connected with the night skies.  They are pillagers.  The cities fear them and rather than meet them in battle, they give them gifts to make them go away.  The Dothraki revile sorcery. The great Dothraki prophecy is the Stallion Who Mounts the World:

“I have seen his face, and heard the thunder of his hooves,” she proclaimed in a thin, wavery voice. “The thunder of his hooves!” the others chorused. “As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass.  Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name.” The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. “The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.”

2. Qarth: The people of Qarth are called Milk Men by the Dothraki because of their fair skin.  Qarth is famous for it's warlocks.  Typical Qartheen fashion for women is to wear a dress with the left breast bared.  The Qartheen considering crying to be sophisticated.

3. Nissa Nissa: To temper his sword, Azor Ahai asked his wife Nissa Nissa to bare her breast and he then drove the smoking sword through her heart, causing her to cry out.  Do the Qartheen women honor the memory of Nissa Nissa by keeping their breast bare?  Do they practice public weeping as a way to honor her?

4. Names: Similar sounding names often identify families in Westeros.  Ty prefix = Lannisters, On suffix = Greyjoys, Ae spellings = Targaryens.  Names with Z's are very common in Slaver's Bay, cities built on the remnants of the old Ghis Empire.

5. Old Ghis and Slaver's Bayi: Toppled 5,000 years ago by Valyria with the use of dragons.  Their spoken language died out but the written language of Slaver's Bay uses Ghiscari glyphs.

6. Languages: There are many more languages and systems of writing on Essos than Westeros.  Melisandre says that the Azor Ahai prophecy is written in the ancient books. What language are these ancient books written?  High Valyrian, Ghiscari, Dothraki, the Common Tongue, the Old Tongue, Asshai?  What type of writing are they written in?  If the Old Ghiscari language is mostly forgotten, then how does one properly translate an ancient Ghiscari text?  If language is forgotten, it could be likely that the original Azor Ahai story is forgotten and misinterpreted as well.  

7. The Unsullied: Worship a goddess whose name cannot be spoken to others.  They bath in the salt sea to cleanse themselves. Their penises are burned.  There is an Unsullied called Hero.

The PTWP prophecy is known in Westeros, but Mel seems to be the only one pushing the Azor Ahai prophecy as a Westerosi one.  All of the other red priests are keeping to Essos.  Could it be that the original Azor Ahai's battle was in Essos and the actual AA reborn prophecy is meant to take place in Essos also?  There are some theories floating around that Mel might have been captured as a slave from north of the wall.  Perhaps her early memories of Westeros are so ingrained that it's only natural she connects a hero story with another hero story she might have been told of as a child.  Mel also never uses the PTWP wording until Aemon brings it up.  She's the first one to make it seem as though they are one and the same.

What is interesting to me is the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy.  It appears that one khal will unite all of the Dothraki into a khalasar so large that they are able to claim huge cities in the east made of 'stone tents'. Is the Dothraki close connection with the night sky and the stars what the Azor Ahai prophet interpreted as 'the darkness'?

I'm not sure how to make a connection with the Unsullied, but I feel that a connection might be there.