258 replies to this topic

[theguyfromtheVale]

gougef, on 04 May 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Just a little nitpick, I thought he was 13th LC. However, I think that one of the main points of the story that GRRM is going to drive home is the misinterpretation of myths and ancient history. I wouldn't might an epilogue of the myths or history of the current events in the story would exist 10000 years in the future.

he was the thirteenth, and he ruled for thirteen years.

[gougef]

theguyfromtheVale, on 04 May 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

he was the thirteenth, and he ruled for thirteen years.

I vaguely remember somewhere else in the story that 13 is bad luck?

[theguyfromtheVale]

gougef, on 04 May 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I vaguely remember somewhere else in the story that 13 is bad luck?

Yes. The interesting thing is that both the Last Hero and the Night's King are associated with the number 13.

[Lummel]

theguyfromtheVale, on 04 May 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Yes. The interesting thing is that both the Last Hero and the Night's King are associated with the number 13.

caution - moderate crackpottery ahead:

well it could be because both are stories like the Persephone myth about the progress of the year and the seasons.  If you are using a lunar calendar every third year you have thirteen months (or alternatively it could be the 12 months of the solar year plus one), the point of the story would be the actual need to manually restart the cycle - because as we've noticed the seasons don't run in an orderly manner with a steady progress in Westeros, they are uneven and get stuck in the same seasons for long periods of time.  Presumably something happened in the night's king story (maybe something very like the sacrifice that Bran sees in his vision in ADWD) like the execution of the night's king that allowed the Spring to return, possibly the missing ending of the last hero story was something similiar.

But this is unfounded speculation on my part.  Both stories could of could simply be there to add to the atmosphere.

[Apple Martini]

To depart from the Night's King for a sec ...

... going back to the idea that Rhaegar was Azor Ahai and that Jon himself is Lightbringer.

Elia = Water (Water Gardens in Dorne?)
Cersei = Lion (this is a stretch, and it's out of order, but Cersei was a possible bride for Rhaegar, sooo?)
Lyanna = Nissa Nissa (yielding Jon)

[Apple Martini]

theguyfromtheVale, on 04 May 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

If I recall correctly, the Rat Cook was mentioned only once, too, and he ended up being a hint to a major plot point. So something is up with the story of the Night's King - and there are only two possibilities I can think of: either the parallels to the Last Hero, or the Night's King is actually Colhands. Both seem equally likely to me.

Or the third, that Stannis is going to mirror the Night's King. Giving his seed and soul to a dead (or at least, very, very old) woman? Making sacrifices to a god? Taking over the Nightfort? Holding his men through sorcery?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Apple Martini, on 04 May 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Or the third, that Stannis is going to mirror the Night's King. Giving his seed and soul to a dead (or at least, very, very old) woman? Making sacrifices to a god? Taking over the Nightfort? Holding his men through sorcery?

Those are good points but I think that events are going to lead Stannis away from R'hllor to the old gods.  

Spoiler

I'm thinking of what might happen if Stannis actually executes Theon at the tree and blood flows on the weirwood.  Also, Stannis is now away from Mel and surrounded by lots of Northmen, and he's got Bloodraven and Bran tag-team ravens shouting at him.  So.

[lojzelote]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 04 May 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Those are good points but I think that events are going to lead Stannis away from R'hllor to the old gods.  

Spoiler

I'm thinking of what might happen if Stannis actually executes Theon at the tree and blood flows on the weirwood.  Also, Stannis is now away from Mel and surrounded by lots of Northmen, and he's got Bloodraven and Bran tag-team ravens shouting at him.  So.

The Northmen would almost certainly like him better for it, but to the rest of Westeros he would probably look even less trustworthy than before. If Westeros is in this anything like real life Middle Ages then the change of religion is kind of a big deal. (And it´s not for this discussion, but I wonder if the Old Gods are really so much better than R´hllor.)

To Apple Martini:
This will seem that I want to hunt you down and have you killed (don´t worry, I don´t plan on anything like that, I´m just a very curious young girl), but I would like to return to the obsidian vs. ice argument. Lyanna Stark (the poster) said in the Dany+Jon thread that the armour of black ice could be obsidian, but you argued that the colour isn´t so important, only the ice which could foreshadow that Jon and Dany will be on opposing sides. It was on the same day we two talked about it, too. Your stance here was, that it is probably obsidian, not ice. So . . . Have you changed your mind?
I don´t want to push you in any way, I just like to have everything made clear.

Edited by lojzelote, 04 May 2012 - 04:25 PM.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

lojzelote, on 04 May 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

The Northmen would almost certainly like him better for it, but to the rest of Westeros he would probably look even less trustworthy than before. If Westeros is in this anything like real life Middle Ages then the change of religion is kind of a big deal. (And it´s not for this discussion, but I wonder if the Old Gods are really so much better than R´hllor.)

If the old gods do something that helps Stannis, or even if it only LOOKS like the old gods do something to help Stannis, I think he'd be willing to convert again.  Stannis is nothing if not practical.  In addition, R'hllorism seems to be the only intolerant faith; Stannis could accept the old gods and still observe the Faith -- heck, Sansa does it, kind of in reverse -- and be welcomed back into the fold.  There are the Mel and Selyse problems to deal with, but I think they're both going to die soon so the decks will be clear, so to speak . . .

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 04 May 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[Apple Martini]

lojzelote, on 04 May 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

To Apple Martini:
This will seem that I want to hunt you down and have you killed (don´t worry, I don´t plan on anything like that, I´m just a very curious young girl), but I would like to return to the obsidian vs. ice argument. Lyanna Stark (the poster) said in the Dany+Jon thread that the armour of black ice could be obsidian, but you argued that the colour isn´t so important, only the ice which could foreshadow that Jon and Dany will be on opposing sides. It was on the same day we two talked about it, too. Your stance here was, that it is probably obsidian, not ice. So . . . Have you changed your mind?
I don´t want to push you in any way, I just like to have everything made clear.

You know, I'm not sure. I still think that Jon and Dany make much more sense as opposing forces than as allies, and that it's fitting that Jon is armored in (black) ice and fighting, while Dany is fighting people armored in ice. Regardless of the color, yes. But that doesn't mean I don't think that the POSSIBILITY of it being obsidian isn't interesting to consider.

Or, you know, you could come to your own conclusions and not wait for me to clarify anything.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Apple Martini, on 26 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

4. Did the person who made the prophecy actually see smoke and salt, or did they see what they thought was smoke and salt? To a person who had never seen snow, snow might look like salt and mist might look like smoke.

All great questions but this is by far my favorite since I've always wondered about the translations/transmition over the millennia, but this takes it one step further.  I've always wondered since the story has been passed down through so much time, how much of the story that Mel heard is affected by what I call the "virgin" syndrome.  Back in the day virgin meant unmarried woman, not necessarily woman who hasn't had sex...over time however that changed.  Thousands of years have passed since this prophecy was first made, so I have to believe that some of the words may have changed meaning over the years just from the nature of language, translation etc.... But it is equally possible that even the original version is off since it likely depends on interpretation of some vision which ADWD more than proved is very open to human error.

Also like the idea that the prophecy has been so twisted that AA may not be the hero we think he/she is.

[Eejit]

Apple Martini, on 04 May 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

To depart from the Night's King for a sec ...

... going back to the idea that Rhaegar was Azor Ahai and that Jon himself is Lightbringer.

Elia = Water (Water Gardens in Dorne?)
Cersei = Lion (this is a stretch, and it's out of order, but Cersei was a possible bride for Rhaegar, sooo?)
Lyanna = Nissa Nissa (yielding Jon)

So AA driving the unfinished sword into Nissa Nissa's breast = Rhaegar's 'sword' penetrating Elia and Jon coming out 9 months later. I like this theory.

[lojzelote]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 04 May 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

If the old gods do something that helps Stannis, or even if it only LOOKS like the old gods do something to help Stannis, I think he'd be willing to convert again.  Stannis is nothing if not practical.  In addition, R'hllorism seems to be the only intolerant faith; Stannis could accept the old gods and still observe the Faith -- heck, Sansa does it, kind of in reverse -- and be welcomed back into the fold.  There are the Mel and Selyse problems to deal with, but I think they're both going to die soon so the decks will be clear, so to speak . . .

You´re right about Stannis doing the practical thing. I´m only worried that the Faith won´t be so compromising now when they have an army at their disposal again. I´m not sure if I remember this correctly, but the early Targaryens had to give up the gods of Old Valyria, so the Faith would stop fighting them, no? (I wouldn´t want to be a Blackwood right now.)

[sillent]

Oh my, Apple, you just made me picture Rhaegar (AA) "thrusting his sword" into Lyanna (Nissa Nissa) so she'd birth Jon (Lightbringer) as AA's third child and in doing so die (so sacrifice).
I think that would be a bit tooo literal though?

Spent the last while reading over this thread and v1. Had my mind blown on multiple occasions.

I kind of like the theory that Dany might be the villain of the story and may indeed be The Stallion or TPtwP but that might not be the same as AAR or the Last Hero. Either way, even though I hope Dany isn't the hero of the story that ends up marrying Jon and living happily ever after (horrrrible ending)- I do think she needs to have a pivotal role in the story, cause well having 6 books of Dany just to use her as a Red Herring sounds like a bit too much of a waste.

Another thing I thought of was that while Martin never makes the obvious answer (that the people believe to be true) to infact me the right answer, surely he needs to change it up now and then so that readers (like us) aren't 100% right in assuming if anyone calls Dany AA/PtwP that means she definitely isnt.

Tze's post on people misinterpreting visions was definitely super interesting in that smoke and salt might be snow and mist- I guess we will get tons of answers in book 6 though I really hope someone can ask Martin something based on these discussions so we have more to chew on.

Another thing to note is that Martin likes messing with conventions, so while it might seem obvious that the Fire/Light defeats the evil Darkness, it might in fact be the opposite (which would make Dany the villain! - hopefully).

I still do think that for the Others to become an actual threat to Westeros, the Wall needs to fall - I had some followup thought on how else the Wall falling would be significant but my mind is going blank so maybe you guys have some thoughts on all of this!

[Jolene Brown]

I don't see Stannis turning to the Old Gods.  If they had originally been his gods and he was going back to them, I could see it as having some narrative power, but as this late date in the story, if he switches teams again, he is going to start to look silly - we see how characters who change their allegiances too often are viewed in Jaime's speech to Balon Swann about his brother and Hyle Hunt's comments when Brienne shows up.  He has thrown in too hard with the Red God to pull back now, whether he likes it or not.

[Été]

I'm sorry to bump this (really rather marvellous) thread but... a couple of minor thoughts.

1. Extending Tze's point about the Essosi prophet not beingau fait with the cold, maybe it's more balanced than either "smoke and salt" or "mist and snow". If PTWP=AAR, maybe ice and fire are each represented, and the PTWP will be born amid both smoke and snow, or fog and ash?

2. Are the Valyrian words for 'prince' and 'dragon' the same? Maester Aemon makes a point about 'dragon' being gender-neutral in Valyrian, but I'm not clear on whether he means the same rule applied to the word for 'prince', or if it's same actual word that translated to two separate meanings in English. Here's the quote from AFFC:

Spoiler

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. [...] The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.

That wouldn't clear up whether the prophecy relates to a dragon as in an actual fire-breathing creature or as shorthand for a Targ, but as the only dragonriders left (that we know of) after the Doom, it makes some sense that the Targaryens were assuming the PTWP would be one of them, even before the Ghost of High Heart pinned it down to Aerys and Rhaella's line.

[Apple Martini]

Été, on 21 July 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I'm sorry to bump this (really rather marvellous) thread but... a couple of minor thoughts.

1. Extending Tze's point about the Essosi prophet not beingau fait with the cold, maybe it's more balanced than either "smoke and salt" or "mist and snow". If PTWP=AAR, maybe ice and fire are each represented, and the PTWP will be born amid both smoke and snow, or fog and ash?

I'm glad you bumped it! I think it was going along really well.

I think this is an interesting idea. And even if we discard the idea of a mistranslation, the "ice and fire" route could still be valid (as it relates to Jon) with a literal reading of "smoke and salt," if the salt in question refers to salt water in the Wall. In that way, it could be the smoke of a fire (Jon's funeral pyre?) and the salt of the Wall, fulfilling the ice portion.

While we're sort of back on the topic of visual interpretations, here's a question — smoke I can see, as an easily visually identified "thing." But what the hell does "salt" look like in a vision? I know it's popular to peg Dany for it, because of Dragonstone, but if that's the case, why not say "born of smoke and the sea"? Likewise, if the salt refers to "tears," why not just say so? What would a person have seen in these visions that would lead them to describe it as salt, and not something like the ocean or tears or even smoked-and-salted meat?

Edited by Apple Martini, 21 July 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Été]

Apple Martini, on 21 July 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

I think this is an interesting idea. And even if we discard the idea of a mistranslation, the "ice and fire" route could still be valid (as it relates to Jon) with a literal reading of "smoke and salt," if the salt in question refers to salt water in the Wall. In that way, it could be the smoke of a fire (Jon's funeral pyre?) and the salt of the Wall, fulfilling the ice portion.

There's plenty of smoke there anyway, thanks to the R'hllorites and their nightfires. I think pyres are gonna be pretty common in the next couple of books between the wight threat and the various forms of pestilence (Personally, I'm quite partial to the idea that Mel is a bit undead herself, and dies trying to rezz Jon. Smoke from her fire-magic, salt used to build the Wall.)

Quote

While we're sort of back on the topic of visual interpretations, here's a question — smoke I can see, as an easily visually identified "thing." But what the hell does "salt" look like in a vision? I know it's popular to peg Dany for it, because of Dragonstone, but if that's the case, why not say "born of smoke and the sea"? Likewise, if the salt refers to "tears," why not just say so? What would a person have seen in these visions that would lead them to describe it as salt, and not something like the ocean or tears or even smoked-and-salted meat?

One of the ways of gathering sea salt is to spread seawater out over an area and let the water evaporate in the sun, leaving the salt behind. Visually, you end up with a big flat white field, not at all unlike a field covered with snow.

[Apple Martini]

Été, on 21 July 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

One of the ways of gathering sea salt is to spread seawater out over an area and let the water evaporate in the sun, leaving the salt behind. Visually, you end up with a big flat white field, not at all unlike a field covered with snow.

Interesting, especially how similar it looks to snow. More interestingly, it doesn't bear any resemblance to an actual sea or to a person's tears or to a hanging side of pork.

[Été]

Apple Martini, on 21 July 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Interesting, especially how similar it looks to snow. More interestingly, it doesn't bear any resemblance to an actual sea or to a person's tears or to a hanging side of pork.

In an OCD way I also think it's interesting how both of the interpretations we've seen from characters have read "salt" as some form of salt water: the seawater around Dragonstone in Mel's case, and human tears to Aemon and Rhaegar.

Do we even know why the Wall's ice is salty? Given that all magic used by men appears to be blood magic, maybe the Wall is salty because it contains actual blood as well as water. (Which might be seawater anyway, in which case the blood probably doesn't contribute much to the taste...)