Apple Martini, on 26 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:
The original thread, which was locked due to awesomeness, may be read here
The goal of this thread, and its predecessor, is to look a little deeper at the Azor Ahai (and Prince that was Promised) prophecies and toss around some alternative explanations.
Here are some of the most interesting ideas from the first thread:
1. When Melisandre is getting ready to burn "Mance," Jon overhears someone saying that it takes two kings to wake the dragon, first the father and then the son, so both die kings. Does this have a basis in the actual prophecy? Does it have to be a father and a son, or will any two kings "do" and Mance and his baby are conveniently there? If the two kings have already died, who are they?
2. Benerro says that Azor Ahai will usher in an unending summer, and those who serve him (or her) will rise from the dead. Deceptively attractive marketing? Actual prophetic material? Are they referring to goddamn wights?
3. Does smoke and salt mean what we think it does? Is it actual smoke and actual salt, or could it refer to, say, colors of a House? Does "from the sea" mean the actual sea, or might seawater frozen into ice … on a certain wall … also do? Do we differentiate between destructive fire (dragonfire) and life-giving fire (Winterfell's hot springs)?
4. Did the person who made the prophecy actually see smoke and salt, or did they see what they thought was smoke and salt? To a person who had never seen snow, snow might look like salt and mist might look like smoke.
5. Are we working with actual dragons or symbolic ones? The dragon has three heads, but is that three people, or one person? Might "heads" have an alternative meaning, like "crowns"? If this prophecy comes from a time when hatching a dragon wasn't a BFD, why does the prophecy treat it like one?
6. One savior, or multiple saviors? Do we take the Ghost of High Heart's word that the Prince specifically must come from Aerys and Rhaella's line?
7. Is Azor Ahai actually meant to be a "good guy"? Is that the twist, that someone sold all along as a savior is actually an antagonist?
8. Are we interpreting the candidates and their roles in the right way? Might Jon, for instance, not be Azor Ahai, but rather Lightbringer?
9. If someone in the books is quite sure about what a prophetical interpretation means and who fits it, do we discard it?
10. Is Tze actually GRRM?
OK, I'll try my interpretation of these.
1) Drogo and Rhaego kinda fits. But there is one other case of a king and his successor dying within minutes, even if they didn't die in fire: Aerys and Aegon. If Jon was born around the time of the sak (a not too unreasonable assumption), he'd be the dragon hatched at Starfall.
2) It seems that in the Long Night, people also come back from the dead - as wights. And I don't see the fire wights so far as particularly positive. Lady Stoneheart is hell-bent on her revenge... So while this looks like attractive marketing, I think it's also a warning telling us that a Long Summer is as undesirable as a Long Night.
3) I really like the 'Azor Ahai will be reborn in a food storeroom' interpretation. But then there's the sea.My question, thus, is if the sea is actually part of the prophecy? Or is it just Melisandre's interpretation of the 'salt'?
4) While snow might look like salt to a southerner, everybody should be accustomed to mist. But then, GRRM literally writes that Jon's wound smokes...
5) It's one dragon with three heads, and at least in the D&E stories, every single Targ is one dragon, not the entire house. So one Targaryen with three identities - Jon as Targ, Stark and Man of the Watch, or Dany as 'Mother', Dragon, and khaleesi.
6) We have seen no prophecies more reliable than those of the Ghost of High Heart, perhaps with the exception of Maggy the Frog. So yes, the only candidates for tPtwP should be descendants of Aerys and Rhaella, i.e., Jon and Dany.
7) We don't know yet, of course. I can very easily see the story of the Last Hero to be the same as that of the Night's King. Both are the thirteenth of a group. But if AA=LH=NK, that would mean that Azor Ahai indeed allied with the Others. It's quite convenient for GRRM that we don't know how the Last Hero escaped the White Walkers... Did he perhaps fall in love with one? Did he have to kill this other he hadd lovedd to finally forge the NW in its current form?
Part of this is that GRRM stated tht Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series was a uge inspiration. Something similar happens there.
8) No idea.
9) Well, we'll have to accept some outspoken theory at some point. But as long as there are several fitting candidates around, Azor Ahai does need to fulfill the prophecy, not only its conditions. You don't just need to tick the boxes, you need to walk the walk, too. So until we actually see someone fight the others...
Edited by theguyfromtheVale, 27 April 2012 - 03:32 AM.