33 replies to this topic

[K.C.]

Some version of the Varys connection makes the most sense to me. The idea that the other two were afraid of Jaqen because the real Jaqen had been killed never occurred to me, but it's logical. Yoren couldn't have had any idea who he was really transporting.

The problem with Syrio survival theories is that it seems like he would have (at a minimum) said, "Jaqen H'ghar must die, as Syrio Forel did before him."

[Free Man]

Savarin, on 26 May 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

Some version of the Varys connection makes the most sense to me. The idea that the other two were afraid of Jaqen because the real Jaqen had been killed never occurred to me, but it's logical. Yoren couldn't have had any idea who he was really transporting.

The problem with Syrio survival theories is that it seems like he would have (at a minimum) said, "Jaqen H'ghar must die, as Syrio Forel did before him."

you forget, they train their men to be no one... and to learn and get new identities... As soon as he becomes Jaqen, Syrio is dead for him, and no more... What about Varys? could he be a faceless? pretending to be an Eunuch?

[Lummel]

Faceless Frog Eater, on 27 April 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

After learning more about the faceless men and the black cells in KL I've been wondering about this. Varys (as ruegen) was the only one who looked after those cells.Did he know what Jaqen was?Also it was seldom used and only the worst of the worst were thrown down there . Was he there when Ned Stark was being held there? Just made me wonder.

No, Eddard Stark and Jaqen were not in the Black Cells at the same time that would be impossible because Jaqen, Rorge and Biter were released on Eddard's orders.  Eddard is imprisoned as part of Cersei's coup.  No-one is going to obey the orders of a traitor, particular not when he is sitting in one of the Black Cells!  Therefore we can be certain that Jaqen and Co were released before Eddard was imprisoned.

Also the Black Cells are single occupancy without bars or windows.  Unless you happen to be locked up or released at the same time as another prisoner you are not going to know who else is down there.

Rugen lumps all three, Jaqen, Bitter and Rorge together.  He doesn't say anything to suggest that he's aware of Jaqen as being particularly different or extra special.  You've got to be considered worse than the typical criminal to find yourself in the Black Cells anyhow.

[Retoreance Stone]

Northern Girl 30, on 24 May 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Maybe he wants to get to the Wall to see what's going on with the Others etc, he thinks Jon Snow is the Prince that was Promised...wants to get in that action.

Man I dont't know. I also think he and Syrio are one. This figure is guarding/guiding Arya to get her to her destiny, whatever that may be.

Yeah but you don't need to be arrested to go to the Wall. He could have just showen up and said that he wanted to join. Sam and Jon were not prisoners when they joined the Nights Watch.

[Retoreance Stone]

Free Man, on 22 June 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

you forget, they train their men to be no one... and to learn and get new identities... As soon as he becomes Jaqen, Syrio is dead for him, and no more... What about Varys? could he be a faceless? pretending to be an Eunuch?

Varys would be intersting as a Faceless man but if that is the case why has he not killed anyone yet? From what I read Varys was there when the Mad kind (Aerys II ) was still around he recieved a pardon when Robert took over which is why he is still around.

[cantucantoo]

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but maybe you guys can shed some light on something that has bothered me for a while now.  As for Jaqen, Rorge and Biter being taken by Yoren from the black cells for the NW, do you find it odd that he keeps them chained on the journey?  If they are too dangerous to trust on the road between KL and the Wall, what makes Yoren think that they can be trusted once they reach their destination?  I mean, can you imagine Rorge or Biter being of any real use to the NW?  Arguably there are other dangerous men who have said their vows and joined the Watch, but these two in particular seem much too dangerous to be of any real use, even if Mormont is desperate for men.  I guess I see Jaqen as useful because he seems that he would be able to control himself, but with Rorge and Biter, I'm not convinced.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

[Ciglon]

cantucantoo, on 22 June 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but maybe you guys can shed some light on something that has bothered me for a while now.  As for Jaqen, Rorge and Biter being taken by Yoren from the black cells for the NW, do you find it odd that he keeps them chained on the journey?  If they are too dangerous to trust on the road between KL and the Wall, what makes Yoren think that they can be trusted once they reach their destination?  I mean, can you imagine Rorge or Biter being of any real use to the NW?  Arguably there are other dangerous men who have said their vows and joined the Watch, but these two in particular seem much too dangerous to be of any real use, even if Mormont is desperate for men.  I guess I see Jaqen as useful because he seems that he would be able to control himself, but with Rorge and Biter, I'm not convinced.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

I think it was one of those "it's worth a shot bringing them north" moments for Yoren, also perhaps to showcase how desperate the NW really is from a literary viewpoint so that readers know that the NW is willing to take anybody at this point.

Lummel, on 22 June 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

No, Eddard Stark and Jaqen were not in the Black Cells at the same time that would be impossible because Jaqen, Rorge and Biter were released on Eddard's orders.  Eddard is imprisoned as part of Cersei's coup.  No-one is going to obey the orders of a traitor, particular not when he is sitting in one of the Black Cells!  Therefore we can be certain that Jaqen and Co were released before Eddard was imprisoned.

This is true, they are released a good while before Yoren leaves, but what makes you think they were being kept outside of the black cells in that in-between time. Surely Yoren didn't just happen to have a cage with him that could fit 3 men, he probably left them in the black cells while he bought a cage for their transport and also so that they wouldn't have a chance to escape before they left KL. This is just speculation on my part but it makes me think Jaqen & co. were probably in the black cells (albeit a different cell) at the same time Ned was down there, 'free' so to speak, but being kept safe and secure.

Not that that makes much difference in anything, really, but that leads me to believe they were there at the same time.

[LampreyPie]

cantucantoo, on 22 June 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but maybe you guys can shed some light on something that has bothered me for a while now.  As for Jaqen, Rorge and Biter being taken by Yoren from the black cells for the NW, do you find it odd that he keeps them chained on the journey?  If they are too dangerous to trust on the road between KL and the Wall, what makes Yoren think that they can be trusted once they reach their destination?  I mean, can you imagine Rorge or Biter being of any real use to the NW?  Arguably there are other dangerous men who have said their vows and joined the Watch, but these two in particular seem much too dangerous to be of any real use, even if Mormont is desperate for men.  I guess I see Jaqen as useful because he seems that he would be able to control himself, but with Rorge and Biter, I'm not convinced.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

This crossed my mind too. I know the next poster explains this but it does seem a tiny bit of an author oversight to me. I know Mormont is desperate for men, and you can handle thieves, robbers, rapists, even someone who's murdered a person or two on the Wall...but Rorge and especially Biter? I can't see how they'd be anything but a burden.

[LampreyPie]

Oh and speaking to the OP someone posited on another thread that Littlefinger had it in for Ned and was planning for Ned to take the offer to go to the Wall to be with Jon, and he would be killed by a Faceless Man (being Jaqen) on the way. No idea what to make of it, though.

[Retoreance Stone]

LampreyPie, on 22 June 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Oh and speaking to the OP someone posited on another thread that Littlefinger had it in for Ned and was planning for Ned to take the offer to go to the Wall to be with Jon, and he would be killed by a Faceless Man (being Jaqen) on the way. No idea what to make of it, though.

Wow really? I know that he was madly in love with Cat but I didn't think that he would hire a faceless man to do his dirty work. From what I remebered in the first book he complained to small console about the price the Faceless men charged for their "work" that they could hire a company of sellsowards for less money.

[LampreyPie]

Retoreance Stone, on 23 June 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Wow really? I know that he was madly in love with Cat but I didn't think that he would hire a faceless man to do his dirty work. From what I remebered in the first book he complained to small cimonsole about the price the Faceless men charged for their "work" that they could hire a company of sellsowards for less money.

Who ever knows with Littlefinger. Some people on that same thread think he planted the idea in Joffrey's head to execute Ned, too. Maybe he wanted all his bases covered. Of course, now that I think about it, it does not explain particularly well why Jaqen was in the black cells. As others have said, he could go to the Wall any way he wanted.

Perhaps he was supposed to kill Arya but when she saved him those plans went kaput? Just throwing it out there, probably nothing to it.

To the Syrio survival theorists, based on GRRM's comments in the So Spake Martin section of this website, it doesn't look good for that theory. He might be messing with us, but it seems like he's saying this theory is dead in the water. I guess you could get into a whole thing with semantics--like when Jaqen changes he says "Jaqen H'ghar is dead--but I don't know. I'm not sure if that is very Martin-like.

Edited by LampreyPie, 23 June 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[DornishFroggy]

Jaqen H'ghar is not the man considered to be captured. He was in the black cells for a reason, maybe something to do with the Night's Watch! I can connect him to the mysterious guy back in Citadel...

[Retoreance Stone]

DornishFroggy, on 23 June 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Jaqen H'ghar is not the man considered to be captured. He was in the black cells for a reason, maybe something to do with the Night's Watch! I can connect him to the mysterious guy back in Citadel...

Do you mean the one Arya saw when she first found the room with the dragon bones in it? I recall her over hearing a conversation when she was down there but I have yet to figure out who was it she over hears.

Edited by Retoreance Stone, 24 June 2012 - 11:23 PM.

[DornishFroggy]

Retoreance Stone, on 24 June 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Do you mean the one Arya saw when she first found the room with the dragon bones in it? I recall her over hearing a conversation when she was down there but I have yet to figure out who was it she over hears.

No, i am talking about the mysterious guy in Oldtown in the prologue of AFfC...