473 replies to this topic

[Ygrain]

Darth Rivers, on 22 April 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

No it will not. It will be cliche and anticlimactic.

A well implemented cliche is not a cliche but an archetype :-)

Apple Martini, on 22 April 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Bad or lazy writing is having a cheap "gotcha" ending out of nowhere.

/cough/ Looking at you, Mass Effect 3!

[Eira Seren]

themockingbird, on 22 April 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

People have problems with it because it is bad and lazy writing. That being said, Fantasy is more about the story than the writing quality, so whatever. Just wanted to get that answer out there. I too agree "all stories have been written" to an extent, but it's how you tell the story. Keeping it free of bad writing is always a good step to take.

I agree.  This is the first Fantasy I've read in over 12 years.  It was the writing that did it.  This series is phenomenal.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

I think its true because there's no other viable explanation for why his parentage would be kept a secret. If Jon was just Ned's bastard then Im sure at some point in his 1st 14 years of life he would've asked Ned about his mother and Ned wouldve told him SOMETHING.  As it is, he has no clue who his mother is as does no one else in the kingdom (save for maybe Howland Reed).

The only other possible option would be the Dayne lady who killed herself, though I would theorize Brandon would be more likely to bed her than Ned & that would throw off the timing of he and Robb being roughly the same age. This theory also makes the promise Ned made seem more irrelevant.

Edited by AvengerofWinterfell, 23 April 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Bushido]

Ned was never a protagonist!!

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Bushido, on 23 April 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Ned was never a protagonist!!

Maybe not in the traditional sense, but at the least he was admirable & one of the people fighting against the "evil Lannisters".  Maybe protagonist is the wrong description but he was certainly well liked my many.

[eyomomo]

YOU GUYS!!!!

I know this thread is supposed to be about how the R+L=J theory comes across in the books, but I was watching the newest episode of GoT (S02ele03) & something Renly said to Melisandre really struck me in relation to this theory...

I think it was She-Wolf who informed me about the theory that Jon could be AA & it might have been Ygrain who mentioned the cellars of the NW & how Jon's body mght be preserved/reborn there... anyways, in the scene I'm referring to, Melissandre says that Stannis  was (re)born of smoke & salt, & Renly asks if he is a salted ham or something. It might not mean anything, or it could mean everything! Basically, I just thought it was interesting that show-Renly came to the same conclusion as some of you!

[Budj]

First post - So hey!...been lurking since finishing the books a few weeks ago.  Turned on to the books by the HBO series...and am happy to say I picked up on the R + L = J prior to the forums....although I missed the apparently obvious Jon Connington = gay hints...(win some lose some?)

ANYWAYS a lot of people here seem to think that GRRM likes to make prophecies fulfilled by rather mundane means than larger than life events.  Could tPtwP simply be exactly as the name says?  Assuming R + L = J and "Promise me, Ned" it seems Jon fits the description perfectly...??  People seem to think the promise means a prophecy promises a prince that will be what the realm needs, but maybe it actually describes the circumstances under which this prince was born and technically allowed to live.  I didn't see it mentioned before in the few of these threads I took the time to read, but that maybe because there isn't much to it.

[Apple Martini]

Budj, on 23 April 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

First post - So hey!...been lurking since finishing the books a few weeks ago.  Turned on to the books by the HBO series...and am happy to say I picked up on the R + L = J prior to the forums....although I missed the apparently obvious Jon Connington = gay hints...(win some lose some?)

ANYWAYS a lot of people here seem to think that GRRM likes to make prophecies fulfilled by rather mundane means than larger than life events.  Could tPtwP simply be exactly as the name says?  Assuming R + L = J and "Promise me, Ned" it seems Jon fits the description perfectly...??  People seem to think the promise means a prophecy promises a prince that will be what the realm needs, but maybe it actually describes the circumstances under which this prince was born and technically allowed to live.  I didn't see it mentioned before in the few of these threads I took the time to read, but that maybe because there isn't much to it.

You know, I don't think I've ever heard it explained in those terms, but it makes sense.

And yeah, I caught the "Is he a ham?" thing last night, too.

[Lady Octarina]

Budj, on 23 April 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

ANYWAYS a lot of people here seem to think that GRRM likes to make prophecies fulfilled by rather mundane means than larger than life events.  Could tPtwP simply be exactly as the name says?  Assuming R + L = J and "Promise me, Ned" it seems Jon fits the description perfectly...??  People seem to think the promise means a prophecy promises a prince that will be what the realm needs, but maybe it actually describes the circumstances under which this prince was born and technically allowed to live.  I didn't see it mentioned before in the few of these threads I took the time to read, but that maybe because there isn't much to it.

Seriously, this was simply the most logical explanation I ever saw for TPTWP - and right under our noses! You have no idea how happy you made me with this comment, Budj!

And to think there were people complaining about the amount of versions this thread has had!

[Ygrain]

Budj, on 23 April 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

First post - So hey!...been lurking since finishing the books a few weeks ago.  Turned on to the books by the HBO series...and am happy to say I picked up on the R + L = J prior to the forums....although I missed the apparently obvious Jon Connington = gay hints...(win some lose some?)

ANYWAYS a lot of people here seem to think that GRRM likes to make prophecies fulfilled by rather mundane means than larger than life events.  Could tPtwP simply be exactly as the name says?  Assuming R + L = J and "Promise me, Ned" it seems Jon fits the description perfectly...??  People seem to think the promise means a prophecy promises a prince that will be what the realm needs, but maybe it actually describes the circumstances under which this prince was born and technically allowed to live.  I didn't see it mentioned before in the few of these threads I took the time to read, but that maybe because there isn't much to it.

Wow, this is a refreshingly new take! One wonders then, what exactly were those "broken promises" that haunted Ned.

[Apple Martini]

Ygrain, on 23 April 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Wow, this is a refreshingly new take! One wonders then, what exactly were those "broken promises" that haunted Ned.

Ned's broken promises could relate to Catelyn and/or Robert — always being honest with them, etc. The broken promises thing doesn't have to be in reference to his promise to Lyanna, which he actually seems to have kept.

[Budj]

Another contrast in support of the theory is Meera Reed's story about the she-wolf at the tourney.  I think the parallel between Lyanna Stark's actions at that tourney and how Jon is always willing to protect the weaker person (i.e. Sam comes to mind) speaks volumes about his origins...to those that would deny this based on how he treated his fellow NW recruits at first I would say.... keep in mind he thought they were all rapists, murderers, and theives...and when he found out he assumed wrong he started being more compassionate towards them as well.

I'm also curious if salt and smoke refers to more of a general disarray (southpark lol) and strife in the realm rather than literal salt and smoke  So salt = metaphorical tears of the people in the realm, but smoke = metaphorical ruins of the realm.  As in AA will be "re-born" during tumultuous times and I personally don't think it is actually AA, but an individual that parallels AA's role during his time.  So the concept of "re-born" is more like a loose re-enactment of history rather than the reincarnation of the old hero....so on that token I am in the camp that AA = tPtwP and delving too deep into the Nissa Nissa substitute may not matter?  Nevertheless it is still fun to read other people's theories / opinions on the matter and with the exception of a few theories, I think everyone's guesstimate is as good as another.

While I'm at it I have a few other "crack pot" theories:

1)  That GRRM is suggesting that rulers shouldn't rule because they have a right to it or took it, but because they are the best fit for the job.  I don't think the "you know nothing, Jon Snow" which is repeated VERY often and contrast of the wildling culture (and the dothraki parallel that Dany experienced) vs westerosi culture is a coincidence.  I think this was a culture crash course for Jon to change his perspective on the ideologies of ruling or possibly Dany if she ends up there...which I'd rather not have happen and she hasn't seemed to have learned this lesson anyways...

I think Jon will convince himself that ruling isn't a right judging on his understanding and complete empathy for wildling culture ....so even if he is the "rightful heir" according to Westerosi culture he will either appoint the fit person or be the fit person himself.

2) The dragon will have three heads....it may actually refer to the fact that there are 2 people WIDELY thought to be AA that die or are at least false....and the 3rd "head"/person is the real one; similar to a hydra...  OR that Jon = Ghost = a dragon.  Three entities in one being.  You could also read this as Jon = Ice + Fire + Nature (old gods)...lots of possibilities here.  I don't think 3 riders is right though, as I suspect Dany will not be keeping her dragons once Victarion gets to Mereen and some dragon on dragon fighting will follow.

3) Why is everyone so convinced the fire god will raise Jon if he dies?  I wonder if/hope the North Gods or the Great Other throw him a bone on this one...I think there is more to the Stark lineage than meets the eye.  Perhaps some Firstmen plus Cotf or Other cross-breeding?

4) Jon ends up with Val if he survives the story...all anti-Jon+Dany people can rest easy here.  The point where Jon sees Ghost walking next to Val all in white and comments that they look like they belong together is something I read into (considering Jon and Ghost are the same entity)...but it's entirely possible I'm over-reaching.  Plus while Dany might be cool with banging her nephew being raised a targ, I doubt Jon would be down with banging his Aunt raised as a Stark.

I predict that Val may be the one to help Ghost/Jon escape as he inevitably has to spend time in the wolves body...this is assuming the NW mutiners know that to kill Jon completely they have to kill his wolf too (good luck)...this is way more specific than the base theory itself needs to be though and obviously pure speculation.

5) Dawn is in Lyanna's tomb as a testament to Jon's legitimacy and Ned stayed at Starfall long enough to get Jon old enough to travel under the guise of returning the sword.  If House Dayne is in on the scandal it would be a sure-fire way to prove it when the time comes as Rhaegar and Arthur were BFFs.  I guess people could claim Ned stole it, but I don't think that would happen.  And the "no one worthy of wielding it" claim could purely be a believable lie loosely based on truth to keep people from wondering where it has gone.

I think this sword will at the very least be pivotal in whatever huge battle occurs.  If it truly fell from the sky then I think it's within the realm of possibilities that it is actually forged from the same comet that coincidentally kick-started the return of magic in the realm.

Sorry I know this touched on a lot and if this belongs in another thread I'd be happy to copy and paste...but I know these topics have all been covered in the 24 versions of this thread in some way, shape, or form so I assumed it was safe to post it here.

[Josephxoxo]

I'm sure this has been said in the thousands and thousands of replies but I don't feel like looking to see if its been written.

In the chapter in the beginning of A Game of Thrones where Robert Baratheon is in the crypt's visiting Lyanna Stark's tomb, Robert Baratheon state's that Lyanna Stark should be buried in the open on a hill, somewhere beautiful. Ned Stark tells Robert Baratheon that this is where Lyanna Stark wanted to be buried. He has a flashback where Lyanna Stark is dying and she is saying "Promise Me, Promise Me". We the reader's have the impression that Ned Stark was promsiing Lyanna Stark to be buried at Winterfell. However, he has another flashback in one of the later chapter's.

Do we really believe that Ned Stark is having vivid flashback's on the word's "Promise Me" as to Lyanna Stark wanting to be buried at Winterfell. I don't buy that. I think Lyanna Stark wanted Ned to promise to take care of the child that was the offspring of Targaryen?

Now I don't think it's Rhaegar. Seems way to obvious to me. I think it's Aery's. He was the Mad King who probably raped Lyanna after all. However, Lyanna wanted the child to survive, so she made Ned make promises to take care of the child.

What I don't understand is if Jon is an offspring of Lynna, why the hell does he look so much like Eddard Stark?

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Josephxoxo, on 23 April 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Now I don't think it's Rhaegar. Seems way to obvious to me. I think it's Aery's. He was the Mad King who probably raped Lyanna after all. However, Lyanna wanted the child to survive, so she made Ned make promises to take care of the child.

What I don't understand is if Jon is an offspring of Lynna, why the hell does he look so much like Eddard Stark?

Aerys was famous for rarely leaving the Red Keep after he was held  hostage earlier in his reign so unless he raped her at the tourney (which would throw the timing of Jon's birth off) then I dont see when he wouldve done it.

They never say he looks like Eddard, they say he is decidedly more Stark in his appearance than any of Ned's trueborn children aside from Arya.  Seeing as how half of his DNA would come from a Stark if R+L=J, its possible that he looks like his mother.

[Euphail]

Quote

What I don't understand is if Jon is an offspring of Lynna, why the hell does he look so much like Eddard Stark?

Quote

They never say he looks like Eddard, they say he is decidedly more Stark in his appearance than any of Ned's trueborn children aside from Arya. Seeing as how half of his DNA would come from a Stark if R+L=J, its possible that he looks like his mother.

I believe they make the connection that Jon and Arya look very similar (brother and sister), and at another point there are comments that Arya looks very similar to Lyanna.

[themockingbird]

Apple Martini, on 22 April 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

And the idea that if this theory is true, it's "bad or lazy writing" is absurd.

And I can think of no better way to kick Targ self-importance in the nuts than for Jon to learn he's half-Targ, spit on it and identify instead with the Starks.

For some reason that whole statement on cliche writing was taken way out of context. I was not commenting on any of the writing in these stories; I was purely saying why other writers and most people dislike when cliches are used. Anywho, hopefully that's all cleared up finally.

And I agree with the last point. I said something similar above -- they really do need a kick to the nuts. God, talk about self-righteous. "I will take back was was stolen from me," Dany. Oh, you mean the giant continent that your great ancestors stole from like, well, everyone else that lived there? Or the people who had it stolen before them? That's so very interesting. I feel bad for you, Dany, because well, at least no one else's families were brutally murdered at the hands of your father and his fathers before him like yours was. Oh wait... that's life, god, you have dragons, can you really complain? You have the rarest three things in the whole world at the moment as far as anyone else knows.

[Eddward Stark]

Going back to the discussion of Jon ascending the throne being cliché...

Darth Rivers, on 22 April 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

No it will not. It will be cliche and anticlimactic.

Alia of the knife, on 22 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

I'll always say that I'd rather have a well told story, even if it is a cliche' rather than an attempt at being "original," (which after thousands of years of storytelling is not easy), and end up with a poorly told story.

Romeo and Juliet may be a "cliche," but hundreds of years later, we're still talking about it.

Exactly, Alia otK.

I'd also like to add that it is even "worse" to have a true King (Aragorn, son of Arathorn) actually become the king in the end, knowing that that's what'll happen from almost the beginning of a series.  Or knowing that Frodo would eventually destroy the Ring.  Or knowing that Harry would defeat Voldemort in the end.  We all knew the outcomes, but the stories were compelling anyways.

In contrast, Jon is not even revealed to us explicitly as a hidden hero/king.  The only reason we like him and want him to do well is because he's a great guy.  Sure, everyone who reads the forums has heard the theories, but even if you know the ending, it can still be exciting!  Without the forums, only small fraction of readers (myself included) ever seem to guess R+L=J on the first read.  

If you have to search online or reread a book in order to solve some of its mysteries, I consider that a major success of the author.  The clues are there...but not obvious enough for most of us, so we read again, share theories with others, and almost become obsessed.

[Alia of the knife]

Budj, on 23 April 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

First post - So hey!...been lurking since finishing the books a few weeks ago.  Turned on to the books by the HBO series...and am happy to say I picked up on the R + L = J prior to the forums....although I missed the apparently obvious Jon Connington = gay hints...(win some lose some?)

ANYWAYS a lot of people here seem to think that GRRM likes to make prophecies fulfilled by rather mundane means than larger than life events.  Could tPtwP simply be exactly as the name says?  Assuming R + L = J and "Promise me, Ned" it seems Jon fits the description perfectly...??  People seem to think the promise means a prophecy promises a prince that will be what the realm needs, but maybe it actually describes the circumstances under which this prince was born and technically allowed to live.  I didn't see it mentioned before in the few of these threads I took the time to read, but that maybe because there isn't much to it.

Thats excellent.
And as the Starks are as much outsiders as the Targaryens were, (for all they ruled), Jon as a union between the North and South would represent a true unification of the Kingdoms.

[Alia of the knife]

Eddward Stark, on 23 April 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Going back to the discussion of Jon ascending the throne being cliché...




Exactly, Alia otK.

I'd also like to add that it is even "worse" to have a true King (Aragorn, son of Arathorn) actually become the king in the end, knowing that that's what'll happen from almost the beginning of a series.  Or knowing that Frodo would eventually destroy the Ring.  Or knowing that Harry would defeat Voldemort in the end.  We all knew the outcomes, but the stories were compelling anyways.

In contrast, Jon is not even revealed to us explicitly as a hidden hero/king.  The only reason we like him and want him to do well is because he's a great guy.  Sure, everyone who reads the forums has heard the theories, but even if you know the ending, it can still be exciting!  Without the forums, only small fraction of readers (myself included) ever seem to guess R+L=J on the first read.  

If you have to search online or reread a book in order to solve some of its mysteries, I consider that a major success of the author.  The clues are there...but not obvious enough for most of us, so we read again, share theories with others, and almost become obsessed.

So obsessed in fact, that at work I jotted down notes about a post I saw that I wanted to respond to.
I had to hide that note, because if anyone saw it, they would want to know what department Rhaegar was affiliated with.
Sad.
But, thats another thread.

[Dragonfish]

Josephxoxo, on 23 April 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Now I don't think it's Rhaegar. Seems way to obvious to me. I think it's Aery's. He was the Mad King who probably raped Lyanna after all. However, Lyanna wanted the child to survive, so she made Ned make promises to take care of the child.

Unlikely. As far as know, Lyanna was no where in King's Landing around the time Jon was conceived (which was a few months into the war).

Quote

What I don't understand is if Jon is an offspring of Lynna, why the hell does he look so much like Eddard Stark?

It's possible for people to look a lot like their aunt or uncle. Also, as others have pointed out, Jon's appearance is indirectly compared to Lyanna's, as Jon is said to look like Arya who is said to look like Lyanna. In all likelihood, all four of these people (Ned, Jon, Arya, and Lyanna) look alike because they share certain distinctive Stark traits, i.e. dark hair, grey eyes, and a long face.