473 replies to this topic

[Sapphire]

LuisDantas, I thought warging was taking possession of another being's mind and body not a two way body switch. And why would Rhaegar abscond with Lyanna only to have her switch places with Elia?    That's too much trouble just to rendezvous with a woman you're already married to!

Night gathers, on 06 May 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

We all know that the reason Ned understood that Joffrey and the other incest children were Jaime's and Cersei's because of their hair color. So my simple question is, why does Jon have black hair and not even slightly blonde if his father's really Rhaegar? To get the silver hair, must both your parents be Targaryens in Westeros?

Ned searched the records and concluded that Baratheons had dominant black hair genes. Previous couplings between them and Lannisters (and other blondes) produced dark haired kids. The Targaryens on the other hand maintained their unique looks by keeping it in the family. When unrelated partners entered the gene pool they usually looked decidedly unTargaryen. Rhaegar's daughter resembled her Dornish mother.

It's likely Jon's allele carried over and is hiding Rhaegar's recessive genes. Should he reproduce with a woman of Valyrian looks, they could have kids with silver hair and violet eyes.

[Ramona]

Sapphire, on 06 May 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

It's likely Jon's allele carried over and is hiding Rhaegar's recessive genes. Should he reproduce with a woman of Valyrian looks, they could have kids with silver hair and violet eyes.

So Jon and Dany could have a silver haired/violet eyed child, except that Dany is now barren (maybe).

[Ygrain]

RoamingRonin, on 06 May 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

I believe Lyanna wanted Ned to promise her that he wouldn't tell Robert and the realm the truth: that she willingly ran away with Rhaegar. That things quickly escalated beyond their control with the deaths of their brother and father. And that Robert's Rebellion was really their fault. Perhaps Lyanna DID die in child birth but I don't think the child was Jon or ever lived. Maybe it was a premature birth... was there enough time for Lyanna to carry a child to term? Could Ned realistically leave the tower with his sister's body and a child unnoticed?

I think the third dragon is Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers/aka. the 3 Eyed Crow. He is technically a Targaryen. Now that Maester Aemon is dead, that leaves Bloodraven, Dany and Aegon as the three last dragons.

The rebellion lasted for about a year, with Rhaegar spending the initial months in hiding, so, yes - plenty of time.

As for leaving ToJ unnoticed, after the fight with KG, there were Ned, Howland Reed, and possibly a small number of staff, including a midwife/wetnurse (probably Wylla), which most probably originally came from Starfall. We know that Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn and that he pulled the tower down to build cairns for the fallen, but we do not know in which order he did these and which other people possibly participated. Also, he can't have taken Lyanna's body just like that, because of the decaying process, which would progress pretty fast, in the warm southern climate, so either he must have cremated her or arranged the silent sisters ASAP while storing the body somehow. My guess is that he cremated Lyanna (alsoto hide the pregnancy), somehow pulled the tower down (probably using fire) and left for Starfall, with Wylla already claiming the child for her own. At Starfall, he could arrange a ship and send Reed with the child ahead to the north, while Ned himself returned to Robert to inform him of Lyanna's death - and this without being seen with a child by anyone except a couple of people who are either on the secret or will hardly ever leave Starfall.

Concerning the promise: Lyanna's  was dying and probably knew it - why should her complicity trouble her so much that she begged with fear? Would it really make her to hold onto life until Ned arrived and granted her her deathwish, since she passed almost immediately afterwards? And why should the memory of her begging resurface as Ned saw Sansa begging for Lady, if it didn't concern sparing/saving an innocent life? And why should the promise haunt Ned so - what price did he pay for not telling Robert that Lyanna loved another, if he wasn't hiding their offspring?
And, above all, if Rhaegar and Lyanna's child didn't live, why did the three KG stick to the Tower of Joy when they were honour-bound to hurry to Dragonstone?

[Wts1976]

My 2nd post, just finished the series, the ptwp has to be more, the prince is supposed to defeat the same enemy as light bringer

[King Doug]

Wts1976, on 06 May 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

My 2nd post, just finished the series, the ptwp has to be more, the prince is supposed to defeat the same enemy as light bringer

I think Apple Martini started a thread about the 'prince that was promised' prophecy. If I can find it I'll link it for you.

ETA: The search function and people's profiles are turned off today. Probably because the next episode is on tonight. So I can't find it. If I remember to later in the week I'll do it

Edited by King Doug, 06 May 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[LuisDantas]

lojzelote, on 06 May 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

Crackpot time!

I´m pretty sure that Elia and/or Lyanna would have gone insane if this was the case. To skinchange into human being must be very hard, as Varamyr´s Prologue proved. Varamyr was very skilled skinchanger, but he failed to overpower the mind of an old, exhausted woman. How could Elia - who had not a one drop of the blood the First Men (as far as we know) stay for long period of time in Lyanna´s body? I bet that even a greenseer would have a problem with it.

I'm working under the assumption that Lyanna was a warg, as well as that she had Rhaegar and Elia's full acceptance and cooperation to use her power to switch bodies with Elia to some degree, probably at least in part to bear children for her.

We have little to go on about warging on people. Varamyr was obviously being resisted, as was Bran.  We don't know how it would work, if at all, with someone who wanted to be jumped (fans of GRRM broader work will recognize the reference).

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Also, wouldn´t anybody notice their changed behaviour? From the little information we have about them, Lyanna was very lively and "wild", while Elia was very sweet and gracious. Those characteristics aren´t uncompatible, but one imagines two completely different women when he hears them.

It sure makes sense.  But it is my understanding that not too many people interacted directly with them at that time.  Most would be aware of the switch and desire to keep it secret.

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Imho:
I suppose that Elia wasn´t exactly thrilled when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, but I suspect that he told her beforehands that he found out that Lyanna is the Knight of Laughing Tree (speculation) and he wants to show his appretiation for her bravery this way, since he couldn´t do so openly. It would still embarass Elia in eyes of other people, but she would know her husband´s real reasons for it.

It may well be, but it doesn't really explain why she would be in the Tower of Joy.

[LuisDantas]

Sapphire, on 06 May 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

LuisDantas, I thought warging was taking possession of another being's mind and body not a two way body switch.

It seems to work that way, yes.  But who knows.  Maybe it can work in other ways, particularly if the subject is willing and, perhaps, even magically assisted.

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And why would Rhaegar abscond with Lyanna only to have her switch places with Elia?    That's too much trouble just to rendezvous with a woman you're already married to!

Because Lyanna was understood to be capable of bearing children, while Elia couldn't do that safely, if at all.

[lojzelote]

LuisDantas, on 06 May 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'm working under the assumption that Lyanna was a warg, as well as that she had Rhaegar and Elia's full acceptance and cooperation to use her power to switch bodies with Elia to some degree, probably at least in part to bear children for her.

Yes, I´ve got it. What was I asking is how Elia would be able to get into Lyanna´s body. You meant that they exchanged the bodies, no? Lyanna maybe had warging abilities (not that we heard anything that would suggest it), but Elia almost surely didn´t.

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We have little to go on about warging on people. Varamyr was obviously being resisted, as was Bran.  We don't know how it would work, if at all, with someone who wanted to be jumped (fans of GRRM broader work will recognize the reference).

I don´t know GRRM´s broader work except for the Dunk and Egg stories and Ice Dragon, so I´m not sure what you´re getting at, but I guess it has something to do with inhabiting other people´s bodies when they let you in. Well, we didn´t see this concept in Westeros, yet. Even the law-less peoples behind the Wall, even the wargs think of possessing other people as an abomination against all good and holy.They have only three basic rules and this one of them. Also, why would Elia agree with it? Wouldn´t she be afraid that Lyanna might like the life of a future Queen too much and refuse to return things to their original state?

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It sure makes sense.  But it is my understanding that not too many people interacted directly with them at that time.  Most would be aware of the switch and desire to keep it secret.

Who, for example? Certainly not Lyanna´s own brother Brandon, if we go by the way he acted when he heard of her "abduction". In the first place, why would Lyanna agree to make a baby-making factory out of herself and not to get anything out of it? Except shame and ruined reputation, of course.

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It may well be, but it doesn't really explain why she would be in the Tower of Joy.

Who? Elia? Lyanna?
Elia wasn´t at the Tower of Joy. She was in the King´s Landing and later in her grave (or whatever the Martells do with their dead).
What was Lyanna doing in the Tower of Joy is explained by the basic R+L=J theory.
If you mean how Rhaegar and Lyanna got involved, then I can only give you my opinion. I think that when Rhaegar figured out that Lyanna is the Knight, he talked to her and became interested in her. They possibly fell in love and he chose her as the mother of his third child. Elia might not like it, but it isn´t as if she lose that much, if Rhaegar was going to take second wife (or whatever). Her son - Aegon, Rhaegar´s firstborn son - was going to succeed Rhaegar as a King, and after Aegon would come Aegon´s male progeny. Elia´s son was going to rule one day, not Lyanna´s. And if Aegon died without sons, then the throne wouldn´t pass to Elia´s daughter, no matter if Rhaegar had other sons by different woman or not because Targs followed the Salic law.

I answered here probably much more questions than you asked, but I tried to make myself clear.

[flinky]

if Lyanna warged into Elia, i can't even put into words how this is improbable because they both died.  warging seems only mental changing not physical so there is no reason for her to warg (temporarily like Bran and Hodor) just to become pregnant then go back.

Edited by flinky, 06 May 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Sofia Aillard]

1- When Ned was in prison, COULD he have made a will? What were the requirements to make a will and that could be done when someone was in prison? Just ask Varys for a pen and paper would suffice? (I wonder because if he could, and I am talking about righteous Ned, wouldn't he finally legitimize Jon if he was really his son? Or since Jon was already on NW, what's the point?)

2- What would it take to Rhaegar get divorced and thus legally marry another? (not that it would matter to the specific question is R + L = J, but I was just wondering ) Or even: Was bigamy allowed?

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A king can put aside his queen and marry another (I: 289)

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No one needs to be present for the High Septon to annul the marriage, but at least one of the wedded pair must request the annulment (SSM: 1)

[corbon]

Sofia, on 06 May 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

1- When Ned was in prison, COULD he have made a will? What were the requirements to make a will and that could be done when someone was in prison? Just ask Varys for a pen and paper would suffice? (I wonder because if he could, and I am talking about righteous Ned, wouldn't he finally legitimize Jon if he was really his son? Or since Jon was already on NW, what's the point?)

Since Jon isn't Ned's son...
But apparently the rules are that only a King can legitimise a bastard anyway

Sofia, on 06 May 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

2- What would it take to Rhaegar get divorced and thus legally marry another? (not that it would matter to the specific question is R + L = J, but I was just wondering ) Or even: Was bigamy allowed?

There are multiple historical precedents of Targaryen bigamy, both within the family and with other noblewomen. Most are old, but GRRM also said 'there may be more' other than the examples he gave - plenty of Targaryen marriage situations are unrecorded.
There is no mention anywhere of a revocation of the Targaryen ability to do this. So apparently there is nothing to stop Rhaegar marrying Lyanna bigamously except perhaps general disfavour, and he is already courting that by disappearing with an already affianced woman and disrupting a marriage agreement between two great lords.

[Serie]

corbon, on 06 May 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Since Jon isn't Ned's son...
But apparently the rules are that only a King can legitimise a bastard anyway

or the father himself maybe? how on earth did Roose Bolton legitimize Ramsay????

Edited by Serie, 07 May 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[lojzelote]

Serie, on 07 May 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

or the father himself maybe? how on earth did Roose Bolton legitimize Ramsay????

If I´m not mistaken, Roose had an agreement with Tywin - Roose betrayed Robb and Tywin gave his grandson Tommen a legitimazition decree to sign.

[Serie]

lojzelote, on 07 May 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

If I´m not mistaken, Roose had an agreement with Tywin - Roose betrayed Robb and Tywin gave his grandson Tommen a legitimazition decree to sign.

oooooooh yes, that sounds right thanks

[Sofia Aillard]

corbon, on 06 May 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

But apparently the rules are that only a King can legitimise a bastard anyway

Thanks! Then Robb was working under the assumption he was the king, and if so, he could legitimize Jon. In the end, even if Robb's will ever shows up, it is invalid (because the premise "king" was incorrect), right? (I know, I know... If R+L=J is true and I believe it is, then Robb's will won't matter anyway, I'm just wondering about the "legal" aspects)

[Lady Octarina]

@LuisDantas
What would be the point of Elia and Lyanna switching bodies for the current story anyway, when there are much simpler explanations for what happened? My other problem with this idea is that it seems to preserve the image of Rhaegar as the perfect, honorable prince to a ridiculous extent; I really prefer to see him as the flawed guy who caused a war in the name of love or a prophecy, sounds more like AsoIaF

Sofia, on 07 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Thanks! Then Robb was working under the assumption he was the king, and if so, he could legitimize Jon. In the end, even if Robb's will ever shows up, it is invalid (because the premise "king" was incorrect), right? (I know, I know... If R+L=J is true and I believe it is, then Robb's will won't matter anyway, I'm just wondering about the "legal" aspects)

The North proclaimed him King, the North considered him a King, so I believe at least for Northerns it would be valid ^.~
But there were so many kings around that I'm going with Varys' "power resides where men believe it does" or something quote.

[Sofia Aillard]

Lady Octarina, on 07 May 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

The North proclaimed him King, the North considered him a King, so I believe at least for Northerns it would be valid ^.~
But there were so many kings around that I'm going with Varys' "power resides where men believe it does" or something quote.

Thanks dear, ! I'm totally "real power resides in the one that does the choosing" kind of girl.

[Alia of the knife]

Lady Octarina, on 07 May 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

@LuisDantas
What would be the point of Elia and Lyanna switching bodies for the current story anyway, when there are much simpler explanations for what happened? My other problem with this idea is that it seems to preserve the image of Rhaegar as the perfect, honorable prince to a ridiculous extent; I really prefer to see him as the flawed guy who caused a war in the name of love or a prophecy, sounds more like AsoIaF



The North proclaimed him King, the North considered him a King, so I believe at least for Northerns it would be valid ^.~
But there were so many kings around that I'm going with Varys' "power resides where men believe it does" or something quote.

And with Jon, it's a double whammy, because in one fell swoop, he is the legitimate King in the North, (see TZE's post about him being concieved under the annointing of the Old god if Rhaegar married Lyanna under the sanction of the Old gods, rather than Neds kids, because he married under the Seven), and/or legitimized by Robb, as well as being a trueborn son of Rhaegar.

Misc.:

Did you notice in the series that Dany is sounding alot like Viserys?
(My Husband says it probably sounds more over the top because the viewer doesn't have her inner thoughts to offset it as in the book).

Also, the scene with the Septon being torn apart gave me a "Walking Dead" flashback.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 07 May 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[Jem]

Alia of the knife, on 07 May 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Did you notice in the series that Dany is sounding alot like Viserys?
(My Husband says it probably sounds more over the top because the viewer doesn't have her inner thoughts to offset it as in the book).

Also, the scene with the Septon being torn apart gave me a "Walking Dead" flashback.

She is also starting to look a lot like him as well, I've noticed, with that boggle-eyed mad look of a waking dragon.

[Alia of the knife]

Jem, on 07 May 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

She is also starting to look a lot like him as well, I've noticed, with that boggle-eyed mad look of a waking dragon.

Just had to read your post to my Husband, because he said the same thing, lol.

And, I don't think it was in the book when she wails that her dreams come true.